C-Forum

Thanks for all these advices again.

Now does anyone have comments on the Prodigy? Looks like it would be a great solo tripping boat.

Other choices are Viper 11, Nitro, Probe 11 and Spark. I find the Nitro too slow. I have a Probe 12 II and find it too large; I suppose that it would be same for the Probe 11. I don’t know the Viper 11 and the Spark.

If you like the Rival, (as I do for ww tripping) then I'd call and ask about the composite Rival and its durability.
I've gone ww tripping with my glass Viper (duraflex by Clipper/Western Canoeing). Its a pretty tough boat so I would not rule out a glass ww tripping canoe.

The Rival should be faster than some of the other canoes you have mentioned (the 11 footers). Not sure about the spark, which is a fast boat.

Not to comment on the boat designs here at all, this is a composite vs twintex only opinion.

I would take a good composite boat any day over taintex for a number of reasons.

1. Modern composite boats can take quite a beating without failing. A good glass/Kevlar layup will take quite a lot of rock abuse without damage and even hard strikes are unlikely to result in breaks rendering the boat unusable. Twintex MAY be slightly tougher but also seems to be blessed with more than its share of catastrophic failures from minor impacts. Yes, I would take a glass boat on a boney trip if that is what presented itself, just be prepared to repair/have repairs done at some point to maintain the integrity of the boat.

2. Composite boats are more repairable than any other type of whitewater craft. Repairs can be done using the same materials that were used to build the boat and a broken composite boat can be made good as new with the addition of a little extra weight. Twintex is repairable but not by mere mortals and is unlikely to be good as new once broken.

Millbrook Boats has super reasonable prices and with that as the final factor there is no way I'd go twintex over Kevlar/glass.

Yves wrote:Thanks for all these advices again.

Now does anyone have comments on the Prodigy? Looks like it would be a great solo tripping boat.

Other choices are Viper 11, Nitro, Probe 11 and Spark. I find the Nitro too slow. I have a Probe 12 II and find it too large; I suppose that it would be same for the Probe 11. I don’t know the Viper 11 and the Spark.

I owned a Prodigy and paddle a Spark on occasion. Neither would make a good tripper in my opinion. Most people find the Prodigy a wet boat if you are over 180 lbs. A loaded Prodigy would be very wet. I think the ProdigyX may be a reasonable choice though.

The Spark is very narrow, round hull with limited primary and due to the hull shape (asymmetric to the extreme and designed as a cab-forward design), it would be most unsuitable. Don't get me wrong - I love the boat for what it was designed for, but wouldn't recommend it for someone who wants to paddle down a river with 2 barrels and wants to steer with a lot of stern prys.

Can't comment on the other boats. Most people consider the Nitro unloaded a pig, but that might make it to be a good tripper once loaded?

It’s interesting to see the pros and cons for each boat, but it’s difficult to make a choice… There are a lot personal preferences involved in choosing a boat. For myself, I think that the most important aspect is the speed. So here is my 100$ question:

Which Royalex solo canoe, when loaded with gear for a 2 to 3 days trip (that means a 60L and a 30L for me), is the fastest?

Hopefully, I won’t get a lot of different answers

To specifically answer that last question, probably a Wenonah Sundowner or an Old Town Penobscot.

The Wenonah Sundowner and the Old Town Penobscot are pretty fast canoes with a lot of capacity, but they are tandems and if you found the Probe 12II too big, you will certainly find them too big as well.

I also have a composite Clipper Viper although mine is a Viper 12. I can fit two 60 L barrels in it plus a soft cooler and a couple of dry bags or small pack. The Viper 12 is not the fastest boat out there, but it is definitely faster downriver than the Viper 11. But again, you might consider it too big.

Another boat in the 12 1/2-13 foot length range that is pretty efficient and can carry a 60 L barrel forward and a 30L behind the pedestal is the Royalex Mohawk Shaman.

If the 12' 2" Probe 12 II was too large in your estimation, and you are looking for a Royalex boat with reasonable capacity and fair downstream efficiency the list is probably pretty short. I have not tried to put barrels in a Mad River Outrage (2" shorter than the Probe 12 II) but it might work. The Prodigy would be on the list as well as the Viper 11. I haven't tried putting barrels in an Ocoee either. It is shorter than the others but in my opinion, is slower than the Vipers.

Which Royalex solo canoe, when loaded with gear for a 2 to 3 days trip (that means a 60L and a 30L for me), is the fastest?

As I understand it from an engineering friend of mine, the biggest factor in a canoe's speed is its length.

I think both the Prodigy and Prodigy X would be wet boats, particularly when loaded with gear. Bob Foote, the designer of the Prodigy series, once told me that when Bell made the canoes, they reduced the boat's depth by an inch over his design. A friend with a Prodigy X says that is his one complaint with the boat--it's wet.

In a tripping canoe, I think it's better to choose a design that can easily accommodate your load (you and the gear) rather than try to stuff you and your gear into a boat really designed for just a person. For example, an Outrage would be perfect for just you and while you could put in gear and still paddle it, an Outrage X with you and your gear would paddle better and faster. It might even feel sportier--something you asked for in your original post.

I'm about your height and weigh about 30 pounds less. I was lucky and picked up a Genesis, a 13-foot canoe, for really cheap several years back. It's been great for tripping because it holds a lot of gear without me having to get fussy about how I pack it and handles great with myself and a load. The boat is so roomy and can hold so much weight, I often end up volunteering to take more than my portion of group gear.

From this experience, I'd tend to buy a little bigger than I think I need rather than smaller. The closest boats to the Genesis today are probably the Esquif Vertige, Outrage X and Wenonah Recon. I've also know people to set up the Esquif Blast as a solo tripper. Perhaps the Esquif Raven would be worth a look. It's shorter than a Rival, but wider and might fit your definition better of sporty.

The Sundowner and Penobscot are paddled solo by many people, that's why I suggested those two boats, especially if you really don't care about making eddy turns.

I agree with milkman. In just about any design of canoe, it is the central half of the canoe's length that is the practical load-carrying capacity. The quarter length at the front and the quarter length at the back are mainly there to part the water smoothly, and add a bit of buoyancy. Not only is there not much room up there for gear because of the hull taper and the gunwale width, you also want to keep the stems as light and buoyant as possible.

My legs are not particularly long, though not short, and when I kneel in my boat the distance from the front of my knees to my toes is right around 27". The height (length) of my 60 L barrels is slightly more than 25" and the height (length) of my 30 L barrel is right around 20 inches. So assuming my outfitting allows me to get the barrels right up to my knees and toes (often the pedestal will not allow this), and assuming I cannot place the 30 L barrel in the boat transversely (which I usually can't) the space that a 60 L barrel, 30 L barrel and I would occupy would be minimally 27" + 25" + 20" = 72" or 6 feet, which would be the entire central half of a 12' canoe.

So if you insist on a boat less than 12' long, not only might you find yourself unable to fit both yourself and 2 barrels in the boat at worst, you will find yourself cramped at best, and forced to try to force gear into the stems. If you take a 12' design canoe and cut it down to 11' for example, the part you are removing is not the ends (which remain basically unchanged) but the gear-carrying central part.

Furthermore, when you go to a shorter boat, you are not only giving up potential hull speed, but all things being equal, you are giving up buoyancy. When loaded, your boat will draw more water making it slower, since it has to part more water at the front stem when it rides deeper, but it will also be more likely to hang up in shallows or on rocky ledges, and the stern will be more prone to damage going over drops.

So unless you need to have only one boat for both unloaded whitewater play boating and loaded whitewater tripping, I would really suggest that you consider a boat in the 12 - 13' length range. Doing so will open up a lot more and faster options.

I can fit a large 60L barrel in my Esquif Vertige, widthwise, gunwale to gunwale in front of my knees (and in front of the thwart).
Behind the saddle, I can fit a small 30L barrel, again widthwise or cross-sectionally.

But the Vertige is larger than the Rival, so I'd stick with the Rival.

If I had a complete choice I would go with a Genisis, as it is I solo trip in a Caption for the right price.

An unlooked for but appreciated feature of the 14' Caption is that it is long enough that I can make room in front of the pedestal seat so that I can stretch my legs out straight and get off my knees in the flats.
Also for some reason I find that a solo Caption with a load handles ww best slightly bow heavy.

Mohawk as several boats to consider too. I went from a Rival to a 12' Probe and was very happy with the performance and capacity on several several whitewater trips. (A couple of them with "Paddle Power", a.k.a. Brian.) For something slightly sportier, the Mohawk Viper should be considered too. It is pretty much the same size (capacity) as the Probe but with sharper chines.

If you're interested in seeing a bunch of Mohawks trip a whitewater river watch this [url http://vimeo.com/28550725" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;}video.[/url]

Good stuff Dave! Next time I see you guys I need to get some info on this river. Hoping to make a go of it this year.

The Esquif Raven is a good tripping canoe too. It's made out of thick Royalex and is wider a more stable than the Zephir. Just sayin'.