C-Forum

eddyhops wrote:

Craig Smerda wrote:My mentality says whatever keeps us drier, higher and safer far outweighs ego, stubborness and dangerous.

Then why aren't we ALWAYS in a decked boat, wearing a skirt, using 2 blades? Because we all have, to more or less a degree, some stubborness and ego. If you deny it, I'll call you a liar.

I'm playing devil's advocate. Boating is a sport of personal satisfaction, so what satisfies is completely subjective. I really have no problem with anyone experimenting or using anything that helps them enjoy boating more, keeps the sport progressive, and may draw new faces to the sport.

When microjets are fitted into boats to give boaters that little extra umph for a boof or hard ferry, or to help with the lake paddle, I'll feel the same way... but I probably won't be able to shake the feeling that something is being lost, and I think that is the crux of the biscuit.

Where does "canoeing" end and another type of boating begin? This is becoming quite the philosophical hot spot, almost like a religous debate, or even bigger--- like the "leftie/rightie" thread (which I see both sides for what they are worth, pun intended. BTW, you folks controlling the paddle with just one hand are a strange lot, I use BOTH hands to control my paddle )

PERSONALLY, I believe "canoeing" is a skill, appreciation, concept, as well as a desire to understand these... not a setup or style of boat. That being said, the setup and style of boat have direct influence on the skill, appreciation, and concept.

As long as you are kneeling and using a single bladed paddle... I DON'T CARE!!!

If man was meant to go potty sitting down we would all be paddling kayaks. copyrighted by Craig Smerda 2007

My goals in open canoeing has always been to take it was far as I could, and that once at the point, then go get a decked boat… well now if it’s any bigger… well not sure the boat would make a difference.

Canoeists to me have always had a certain legacy, much like the Samurai who dedicated themselves to an unwritten code. Of achieving a different level of status, among the ‘I’ve been there - Done that’ crowd, an aesthetic that placed the journey over merely getting there. A form of boating where what can be done and how we got there was more important than just getting there. Personal satisfaction gained through, accomplishment and performing in style, instead of a “I” can keep up with “You” mentality … half of getting anywhere, is how you got there (and back)… rendering a journey to “I got there”, while successful, is cutting the experience short. Psycho (Psyco-his spelling) once told me he tried kayaking, and was good at it. But that he was just another boater, just a plain ole anybody, but in a canoe I’m somebody … “I’m Psy’co”. With a pump you lessen the sport, you’ve become a no-body. Would running the North Fork of the Payette, or the Niagara Gorge been the same if Noland had used a pump?

To use a motor seems a dishonor to the journey. It invades and permeates the wilderness experience, rendering it void, like bolting a perfectly good lead-able climb, or having someone else carry your pack. Like rapping down a climb to see where the holds are. Making that second or third move, and being dry enough to do it, is taken out of the equation. Electric pumps are like using steroids, to hit homeruns - run faster - muscle up more, the *** asterisk *** will always be there. If you do a first-d and used a pump, there’ll always be the stigma of not getting it done by your-self. The stench that you needed external help. It reeks of I’m almost good enough.

Yes, I could boat bigger … Yes, I could go there … Yes, I could run that … we are the point in this sport where the biggest, most bad’d’flower butted, near impossible are being run… but can you do it like this? … Could Clay, could Jim, could Shane, EJ, Mark, or Eli - sure, but can YOU ??? A pump seems to say, well I could have.

Well, guess I’ll just start calling myself a ‘Trad-canoer’ or Trad-OC1, to differentiate from the sports-canoers. No longer will ‘open-canoer’, really mean anything. The hang-dawg, rap-bolt, chalk-smearing, penciled necked, candyass city-boys have arrived at the sport of whitewater canoeing.

We all should have the goal of becoming fully accomplished in the sport. I think most of us have that goal. I feel a great sense of accomplishment when I'm "on my game" and make a difficult run dry, or almost dry; or if I run a difficult rapid even with a boat full of water.

There's no doubt that the pump is a crutch, and a "dualie" is a double crutch. I try to avoid paddling my "crutch boats" if possible, but sometimes that siren lure just takes over; it makes my decked boat friends happy when they don't have to wait while I bail. If they're happy, they might invite me to tag along again.

I'd like to see the pump that would have kept Nolan's boat dry on the Niagara; I think it would need an unlicensed nuclear reactor for power.

what he said. And another dam thing us young bucks don't need no pumps, but is OK for the few older canoers out there, you fossical use what ever you need.

Craig Smerda wrote:My mentality says whatever keeps us drier, higher and safer far outweighs ego, stubborness and dangerous.

Craig.

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Craig Smerda wrote:
As long as you are kneeling and using a single bladed paddle... I DON'T CARE!!!

If man was meant to go potty sitting down we would all be paddling kayaks. copyrighted by Craig Smerda 2007

You, truly, have a dizzying intellect... careful though, multiple choice mentality can get you in trouble.

eddyhops wrote:

Craig Smerda wrote:My mentality says whatever keeps us drier, higher and safer far outweighs ego, stubborness and dangerous.

Craig.

________________________________________

Craig Smerda wrote:
As long as you are kneeling and using a single bladed paddle... I DON'T CARE!!!

If man was meant to go potty sitting down we would all be paddling kayaks. copyrighted by Craig Smerda 2007

You, truly, have a dizzying intellect... careful though, multiple choice mentality can get you in trouble.

I'm the same guy that did this... http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=5494 so yeah!

am I the only one who voted women, wennies and week of heart. What a bunch of PC'ers

the forum wouldn't let me change mine... i was testing and voted incorrectly ....otherwise, there would be two

It's starting to sound an awful lot like the kiddie pool in here all of a sudden.

hmmm...

isn't that avatar a PROBE

Louie wrote:am I the only one who voted women, wennies and week of heart. What a bunch of PC'ers

Yeah... but as of this very moment that's 2% of the vote...? Phil must have taken a page out of the GOP playbook or something.

I think there are places for pumps, but the real reason is that they make it easier...easier to surf more, easier to run without dumping....

Having said that I voted good idea. I debated a long time before putting a pump in my Zoom and now I don't think it's fast enough. For me the true elegance is not needing the pump and my goal is always to run dry, but sometimes when you start to push there are some places swimming ain't worth it...and some rivers have nearly no eddies to haul out and dump in.

I wish I could run the Engstligen clean....it's about 7km at 130ft/mile (I think that's the conversion I remembered). Decked boat it's a fun run. Open boat it's a nerve wracker. 7km of continuous water, never less than III never more than IV (at some levels) and non stop, small eddies or eddies in the trees. I wish I could paddle that clean, but so far I haven't run it open without a swim. She's a fast downward spiral if you misjudge a wave or hole in one of the long sets. That's the sort of river I had in mind when I built the pump, but it won't make much of a difference there. The in hole is much bigger than the out hole and the waves don't stop.

I could just paddle decked and I rather paddle a new river in a C1 the first time since I nearly always am the lone C-boater, but the ultimate for me is a great line on a technical rapid in an OC1. I just need more practise

As long as we know it's a weakness and try to avoid it, are we still weak? What about if it helps us get better? (Better skills developed, not run harder water)

Thoughts...

As a runner, I hear the same kinds of arguments about whether you are running or jogging and at what pace does that change.

I'm going to take a wild guess here that nobody on this forum routinely takes a birchbark canoe or a cedar stripper down class III/IV runs? I'm guessing everyone here probably paddles a whitewater specific boat, and they have thigh straps, or bulkheads, and flotation bags, and knee pads, and foam pedestals, or even a decked boat with a skirt, let's not even get into the conveniences of dry suits, helmets, PFDs.

I've paddled a 16' fiberglass flatwater boat more times than I care to count on class II and easy IIIs without flotation, sddles or a fixed kneeling pad. I've surfed it, run it over ledges, broken the thwart and bent everything so bad that I had to take the aluminum gunnels off to bend them back into shape, and right now it leaks like a seive.. I've made turns (with a strong duffolk and my 6'3" frame stretched out and pulling hard) that beginning yakkers have issues with. I've since "compromised" and gone to a boat for whitewater.

Unfortunately, I (and a few others here I assume) don't have big water in our back yards. I can hit a couple of rapids with a 2 hour drive (one way) that are II/III, but nothing bigger. For that, it's a 5 or 6 hour drive and that doesn't happen every weekend or right after work. To challenge myelf, I run a boat that is harder to keep dry, something that I can work on my skills in the available water, and I usually run it without my bilge on. If I'm playing in a hole, I'll turn it on so I can play longer...it might be 2 weeks or a month or longer before I get to do it again and I'm not wasting my time bailing if I can help it. And yes, the once or twice a year that I might get to run something that is III/IV, I'm gonna use my bilge if I need it.

Long story short, we're all making compromises fom the ideal, mystical paddler that comes to mind when the word "canoe" is mentioned. We do it for safety, practicallity, and fun. If you have a problem with me having a bilge in a boat, you need to check where you're keeping your spare paddle, cause that aint good for you.

Helmets? PFDs? They're for the weanies and weak of heart. Same with paddles--who needs those? Modern conveniences. Just more things that can break when on the water.

Let's move the discussion to something near and dear to the decked boater's heart - NOSE PLUGS. Here's an item that's totally superfluous and only needed by people who don't know how to spend time under water without getting it in their sinuses - THE INEPT.