C-Forum

And you'll have to paint the faces of your blade differently and wrap your top thumb in flagging tape, so we can see what's going on.

P.

yeah, your cross j snap is bad a$$.
maybe you should teach it to these guys...

estanguet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6fuY262J8

martikan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yoxf772zNo

bell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNcoz1JWbHM

Two things struck me watching the videos...

I don't think Tony E took two offsides in a row, and none of them took more than three. Strictly a temporary control stroke. That implies that their forward stroke is self-correcting almost all the time.

The underwater feather part of the stroke seems to me more critical for control than the pull back.

And the split-screen of Robin and Tony was AWWWSOME.

Bob P wrote: Strictly a temporary control stroke.

Really? To me it just seamed their cross strokes are almost as effective for both turning and... OK probably a litlle less powerful than their bomber onside but... is there any way you could have modified one of these race to get them more tested on their offside and they still deliver thumbs way up...

I am no expert sure but for me what always astonishes me the most watching champs on these races is how at ease they feel when they have to go offside for just about anything. Incredibly sharp eddy turns, power or correction on the funkyest moving currents they do them all.

Yeap they seems to be aligning their eyes on the upcoming gates mainly in recovery phase (either side) with their paddle shallow... Heck knows why.

But keep the J! uh.. or the C?

thread steal cont.
Martikan is such a beast!!!!!
I have started to dabble in slalom boating and all my bad habits have been called to my attention quickly.
One of the biggest was how much I would drop my elbow of my top arm. So i started watching martikan to try to emulate his stroke notice how high he keeps his top elbow and it isn't a straight armed punch like lots of people are taught. Its kind of hard to describe but the video of martikan should explain what I am saying just watch his forward strokes.
Also notice how far back they get for their draws and crossbow draws ALMOST a back stroke with the power face.
Any ways back to the original topic or what it has become I tried this so called offside J today and still don't really know how anyone could use this stroke with any effectiveness maybe there just has been a miscommunication as to what is actually happening with the blade

marclamenace wrote:

Bob P wrote: Strictly a temporary control stroke.

Really? To me it just seamed their cross strokes are almost as effective for both turning and... OK probably a litlle less powerful than their bomber onside but... is there any way you could have modified one of these race to get them more tested on their offside and they still deliver thumbs way up...

At least when it's used when going in a straight line. Turning is a whole 'nuther thing, where an "offside Duffek" is the way I'd describe most of their offside strokes. That's actually where the offside stroke is more powerful than an onside Duffek, I suspect because its strength is built into the twisting torso. The arms do very little.

As an aside, a few years ago I compared the straight-line speed I could get with the onside and offside strokes. My offside speed was about 90% of the onside - indicating the power was only about 80%.

I've been doing this for a long time. Paddling for 35 years and racing C1/OC1 for 25, so my stroke is at least semi-competent.

Got you Bob, you certainly know what you are talking about; duffek and rudders apart, a straight line offside essentially corrects the shot a bit... At least for these champ racers most probably.

Myself having a half-round bottom boat I use it more to ferry or just steer on that same side since the boat can drift quite a bit on whatever side I paddle. I can imagine that a more edgy boat could keep a line much more and you could therefore only correct a bit on your offside, but for me although I am still having rather poor offside throws, it is just becoming an automatic thing, almost: I try to just paddle on the side I want to go as soon as I am not looking for sticking the straight line... Eddy ins, outs, ferries or just clearing the next rock or swimmer ahead, that's becoming more natural these days and hopefully it'll improve the shots with practice as well!

More water!

Been thinking about this and I think Bob's post above hits it pretty square. In addition I think with your offside "j" you are also experiencing side slipping your boat. To me it just dumps to much speed to be usefull and is really closer to backpaddling on your offside. Backpaddling is certainly usefull in river running though.

I would kind of unendorse the offside "j" as I think you are using it to make up for a lack of torso rotation that starts with your shoulders and like coiling a spring goes clear through to your knees. Go back to flat water put your boat on a straight trajectory and try turning it with just torso rotation as described above. Then focus on driving the boat forward with your offside stroke.

In order to effectively do it, you have to have good shoulder rotation. I believe my shoulder rotation is how it should be. As with most sports, your power comes from; 1. weight transfer, 2. waist/shoulder torque, 3. form, 4. muscles

Let me go over this again... Where did the J-stroke come from?!? I don't know....but I'm sure it originated as a flatwater stroke.

The onside J stroke(flatwater), is done with turning your thumb down, and holding the blade in the water for a few seconds to correct. Sometimes you even pry out a little bit, if you need to.

The WW J stroke....is more of a SNAP - Just like people stroke, then snap the pry... The WW J is just like that snap....You pull the paddle, then you do a "UP AND OUTWARD(powerface)" Snap, as you take the paddle out of the water. You basically do the same thing on your off-side, except your thumb rotates back toward your face and out, just a little wrist rotation. And now that I'm thinking of it, your bottom wrist opens up as well(put your hand on the table - and lift your hand without lifting up ur arm.... thats wut u do with ur bottom hand - except sideways)


- And Larry... I know that there are people out there that are really good/sick nasty, been doing it their whole lives, and have certain strokes for a reason, But I am not one of those people. I started from scratch last May, canoed all year multiple times a week until now. And here I am, finally a full year later with a bombproof combat roll, and comfortably running IV. Obviously I have much more learning to do, but as with all sports that I pick up, I want to be the best that I possibly can, and waste no time doing it. I sometimes ask for help about certain things, because there are times when it is very helpful. I also post my 'findings' when I figure something out. Hoping that somewhere, someone can benefit from it.

The majority of the open boaters, use their off-side as a means to get back to their on-side. How many boaters have you seen that paddle comfortably on their off-side, without thinking to themselves..."ok 1 more stroke and i'll finally be able to paddle back on my on-side"

I have gotten it to the point, where that doesn't cross my head, because I am comfortably paddling on both sides, with the same amount of power. So why knock it, if I'm saying it works and works well? It might work for someone else too... I haven't felt this good about a stroke yet. Like I said, I'll get a video up, so you can see what I'm talking about, because a lot of this is probably getting lost in words.

I came into whitewater from flatwater, and the J was ingrained into my muscle memory. Forward stroke to J, forward stroke to J, over and over. After paddling some whitewater I realized that from the J position you can't react fast enough to sudden changes, you have to get that wrist rolled back to a pry grip or let go of the T and palm roll before you can do much. But from a simple rudder correction (powerface in), you can be on a draw, pry, or brace that much quicker. I practised the offside J mess on the flat quite a bit, just for fun and it is a neat stroke, but it seems like if you used it in the sh!t you'd just have a big snarl of paddle and arms going on...Looking forward to the vid though, and if it works roll with it!

Dan P.

OC - you're right on the J in the sense that you're out of position from doing other strokes a little bit. But I think the time that you save by doing a J-snap, as opposed to a quick pry, makes up for the paddle angle.

Also, with the CF J I'm talkin about, your bottom arm, actually pushes out from the boat, this controls the snap, as does the top wrist.

OC1er wrote:After paddling some whitewater I realized that from the J position you can't react fast enough to sudden changes, you have to get that wrist rolled back to a pry grip or let go of the T and palm roll before you can do much. But from a simple rudder correction (powerface in), you can be on a draw, pry, or brace that much quicker.

Just as there is little dispute about the J-stroke being more efficient in maintaining forward momentum while providing correction, there is not much debate over the fact that a rudder/pry provides more quick reaction options that a J-stroke in WW. However, this doesn't mean that you need to abandon using the J in WW entirely. You'll probably find yourself selecting which to use based on the specific situation you're in. For example, I find that I use the J for running in light chop and for attainments, while falling back on the quick reaction safety of the rudder/pry when punching holes or paddling in particularly turbulent water. It's always good to have a variety of strokes available in your quiver to fit any situation that might arise.

John

Yeah reading all of this I'd really like to see a video of this "cross j-stroke." To me the j-stroke is ok to use on whitewater, it helps maintain speed but isn't as effective in straightening the boat as a rudder. The idea of a cross j seems very strange. I'm extremely comfortable on my offside, but if I needed to straighten out there's no way I would use a cross j it would just be too ineffective. The easiest thing to do would just be to throw a cross duffek in, its turning power is so effective you can just go straight back to your forward stroke.

FullGnarz,

For many solo ww canoeists, a big breakthrough in becoming more than a class II floater is learning to use short, poppy offside power: bang-bang-bang.

For me, at a time when I thought I was already getting it, that advancement in a more-aggressive paddling style included being corrected to have my top thumb twisting forward for my offside recovery (thanks Allyson!) - sometimes I'd get tangled offside with too long a stroke, and then the only possible recovery was leading with my pinky instead of my thumb.

So, to me, learning to always do my offside recoveries with the thumb twisting forward (power face facing the hull) was a breakthough that made me much more comfortable on my offside - so, I (and others apparently) may be tough to convince that it's ever a good idea to twist it the pinky way, that I've already had to unlearn.

Just explaining the skepticism. By all means keep experimenting and sharing! You sure have come a long way in short time of open boating, so whatever you're doing works!

Pat.

Heading out to cheat this weekend. Running it the same level that I ran it on my first time, during CheatFest. I blew a couple lines pretty bad, due to not having enough speed. This is what pushed me to change what I was doing, onside and off.

We'll see how it goes this weekend. Going to be on my horse this time.