any one convert a villian, detox, or pure yet?

[TheKrikkitWars]

josh: couldn't make the villain sound much worse if you were trying.

I know, and it looked so promising...

A friend of mine has a Pure and described it as "as good as a Nomad" which is pretty high praise round these parts...

The Solo has one really cool thing going for it... It can boof with F'all speed! (which is just as well, considering how slow it is).

[Craig Smerda]

josh: couldn't make the villain sound much worse if you were trying.

I know, and it looked so promising...

A friend of mine has a Pure and described it as "as good as a Nomad" which is pretty high praise round these parts...

The Solo has one really cool thing going for it... It can boof with F'all speed! (which is just as well, considering how slow it is).

What's a "Pure"?

ahhh... http://rivercitykayaks.com.au/brands/pr ... ming-2010/

Regarding Fluid... the *BIG BANG* might be a tad faster but it's still a kayak

http://www.facebook.com/notes/fluid-kay ... 3060806815

[sbroam]

It was about time for another conversion vs. "Real C-1" debate. Personally, I would like a "real C-1" if only on principle, but as there are hulls available that make wonderful C-1s, I'm content to convert. It would be nice if the conversion process was simpler, but I do find the process more satisfying than vexing. My Score is very stable and enjoyable, marred only by foot bumps that make the bow a little less slicy. I can live with that. It's friendlier than my slalom boat or Slasher ever was. (Compare the bottom of the Score and the Fly and remember which came first...) My Remix is my "easy boat", only occasionally do I find fault with it's turning or tracking (the littlest bit quirky, probably because I'm missing a little edge) - I can't think of any way my Cascade was superior in any way that I miss.

[Craig Smerda]

if you build it... they will still convert?

[oopsiflipped]

The Solo has one really cool thing going for it... It can boof with F'all speed! (which is just as well, considering how slow it is).

i've noticed that for sure. it accelerates very well. can that make up for having no speed? it looks like a great kayak, but i still haven't figured out how to windmill paddle like i see kayakers in the solo occasionally do to make up for it being so slow.

and yeah, other than the horrible name, big bang looks great. i've always like boats with hatches. back home we'd fill em with snow and pbr!

[sbroam]

It? How about "them". IMHO, it will be harder to hit a "one size fits all" c-1 than oc-1. Take that as a challenge and come back with a prototype

[Craig Smerda]

It? How about "them". IMHO, it will be harder to hit a "one size fits all" c-1 than oc-1. Take that as a challenge and come back with a prototype

without a doubt... but I guess we would have to define what it would be used for primarily... and what "they" weigh again.

gimme five years...

[marclamenace]

gimme five years...

Sounds like a plan!

Just say'n... The l'edge looks awesome, me thinks that the same hull, from which you remove the top half, removing some volume and adding two hatches and a proper size cockpit would be a good start... if not a great boat just right there!

Now do you really need 5 of 'em years anymore?

[xmas0c1c1k1]

the one thing I find lacking in most conversions is glide
it is much harder to constantly paddle in a c1 than in a kayak I really wish I could find a boat the holds its speed more I don't care if its the fastest boat in the world I just hate how most boats require constant rapid paddling

[xmas0c1c1k1]

oh and I heard the villian would make a crap boat as well because the front deck is way too high

[oopsiflipped]

glide. i like it. that's a better term than speed.

[Craig Smerda]

the one thing I find lacking in most conversions is glide
it is much harder to constantly paddle in a c1 than in a kayak I really wish I could find a boat the holds its speed more I don't care if its the fastest boat in the world I just hate how most boats require constant rapid paddling

I'm listening...

glide. i like it. that's a better term than speed.

are you serious... or is that the pink helmet talking?

yes... I hear you both on the glide/speed issue... but you'd want to be able to turn it quickly right?

kind've funny how most of the creekers and river runners (kayaks) are all in the 8-9ft range... except of course for the Dagger Green Boat and Shanes (LL) Stinger... which probably do have glide and speed... it's hard to balance everything in one package... so in regards to a C1 it sounds to me like we'd be talking something in the 9-10ft range???

[xmas0c1c1k1]

yeah well I think there is a big difference between the two I don't care about top speed very much, because I'm not racing against mr mcgnarlz in the green race but I would like a boat that accelerates quickly after a few strokes but doesn't immediately stop as soon as you lay off the gas. Thats my problem with pretty much all the modern creek boats haven't tried the herc it might be better than others and I like the remix because it has some glide (gabe i know you have qualms with the plastic but dam good design).

The main time I encounter this problem is in drops where there are two drops kind of stacked but with a little room between them it sucks when you line up for the first drop boof and then all your speed is gone when you wish the boat would continue to glide to where you want it to go.

To get even more detailed I want a boat where I boof glide towards the next drop take a stroke or two and boof again. I don't like the boof into stall take 5 or 6 strokes then boof again.

Now long boats and most canoes can do this but I think that where we get skunked on conversions is that we have to try to paddle like a kayaker who can just do the rapid paddle through everything.

Also some of the drops where its off side and you decide to rudder off instead of a offside boof a little more glide would be nice

I am no design master but the problems I see with achieving this is there will be sacrifices in other areas. I think you would have to cut down on rocker some am I right? Also prob add some length, but I don't think that is a big problem for c boating b/c you are adding some tracking and turning the boat isn't much of a problem for us.

As far as building a c1 for everyone I think it would def be a river runner that can creek I think something along the lines of a remix. I know there are some c1 playboaters out there but 1. the wheelboy was made and the sith is still there 2. playboats change every year 3. I think there are more c boaters that like to just get out and work the river do some front surfing catch eddys go fast 4. It will be very hard to make a c1 playboat that is competitive in a rodeo competition that is a good river runner

Just some of my thoughts. Lets just say I think about this alot.

[Craig Smerda]

me too... and a playboat isn't even worth considering... it'd have to be a river-running/cruising and creek capable design... cuz from my perspective that's what the vast majority of people really are doing... besides... there's absolutely nothing wrong with a little hull speed now and then.

fwiw... I think the ole' Atom actually has some "glide" to it... but that's probably because I paddle a Red Fred conversion C1 for park'n-play which wouldn't know what glide was even if it got hit in the head with it.

[markzak]

yes... I hear you both on the glide/speed issue... but you'd want to be able to turn it quickly right?

My 2 cents... I paddle C1 almost exclusively on anything harder than class III. Why? Because I like taking wet lines! Plugging holes, riding big waves, surfing holes, etc. And I hate bailing. And well, maybe I'm kind of a puss sometimes, whatever. I have converted many boats, creekboats, playboats, river runners, etc. All of my conversions are great boats to paddle in different conditions. Not once have I thought, "oh geez i can't make that move because my boat (c1) was designed as a kayak and can't do that anymore". In a C1 you have advantages and disadvantages, but as long as you pick your conversion boat out wisely, you should have a fun ride (i.e. wide boat, not super duper sharp edges, whatever).

While a C1 specific design might be great, I wonder if it will really appeal to everyone's interests. One person's idea of stability, speed, agility can easily differ from another's.

With the kayak manufacturers tweaking designs every year and marketing the heck out them to the point that kayakers feel like that new design just might let them boof or style a move that they've screwed up time and time again.... whats the point in making a C1 specific boat that might cost me $1,000 or more when I can get someone's 1 year old Nomad, Everest, Burn, Karnali, Remix, Jefe, Blunt, whatever for like $300-$500. Especially considering the frequency with which I break my creek boats, usually 1 a year.

I would recommend telling your nose-plug wearing kayak buddies that the reason why they messed up that one important move is really their outdated boat design, not their paddling skills. Encourage them to buy new boats every year so that the C1 community can stay strong and have lots of options. I just feel like C1, OC1, OC2, OC3, whatever will always be a smaller subset of the sport and maybe sometimes we have to recognize that kayaking drives the majority of the market. Sorry I don't mean to burst anyone's bubbles, I'm just saying that I'm not complaining about my conversion boats and I don't want a 9-10' long creek boat.