C-Forum

Nope.

Just a Remix, which everyone thinks is a kayak. . .

Methinks someone should make a large sticker which says something like "This is a canoe" or something that conveys that message to put on conversions.

Well, as a Fink owner I think I might need to weigh in. But before I do that, I'd like to ask Craig where he was hoping to go with this thread? Were you thinking of another labor of love?

Back to the Fink. First, I have never seen an Atom, so I can't compare the two. To anyone who has seen it, the Fink is an oddly shaped C1. I'm guessing that the designer tried to marry attributes of a slolom boat with a creek boat and got something of a Frankenstein (not the kayak). So, what are its attributes:

1) Rolling it is not difficult with good form and thigh straps.
2) The boat is fairly fast, but only if you paddle the front of the boat.
3) The boat turn very quickly, even compared to many of the kayak creek boats.
4) The cockpit is not that small, since at 6'4" I never had a problem exiting, even with the additional thigh straps.
5) The boat punches big holes without any problem. My Spanish Fly is a problem when it comes to hole punching, the Fink is not.

So, what are the problems with the Fink. Well, that is simple. The primary stability is the weak point. If you are in the boat all the time, or maybe if you are coming from a Prelude, Skeeter or a Zoom you might not notice it much, but most would feel that primary stability is lacking. Still, I ran upper 50 miles of the Middle Fork of the Salmon (class 3 and 4) and only had one flip - exiting an eddy.

The last thing I should say about the Fink is that since getting my Spanish Fly a couple of years ago, the Fink has seen little river time. I'm pretty much an OC1er and will probably stay that way - maybe I'll convert a playboat to C1, but that would be it.

So, given what I said, would I purposely design a C1 like the Fink, assuming I knew how to design a boat, no. Do I think that there is a place for a plastic C1 on the market, not sure about that. Because there are so many kayaks that make good conversions, I wouldn't think it would be profitable. I think that Craig hit the mark in the OC1 market with the L'Edge. Is there a do-it-all C1 design out there? I don't think so, but as I said, I'm not a designer.

Gabe (Oopsiflipped), you only tried the Fink in the pool and didn't like it. By the way, have I thanked you for the Spanish Fly lately?

Marc

P.S. If someone is interested, I have a Fink for sale, skirt and all.

Smurfwarrior wrote:Methinks someone should make a large sticker which says something like "This is a canoe" or something that conveys that message to put on conversions.

I would get me some of those!

I'm telling ya, that could be the last and final step in a conversion.. I'd buy some!

Marc Evans wrote:Well, as a Fink owner I think I might need to weigh in. But before I do that, I'd like to ask Craig where he was hoping to go with this thread? Were you thinking of another labor of love?

Do I think that there is a place for a plastic C1 on the market, not sure about that. Because there are so many kayaks that make good conversions, I wouldn't think it would be profitable. I think that Craig hit the mark in the OC1 market with the L'Edge. Is there a do-it-all C1 design out there? I don't think so, but as I said, I'm not a designer.

Marc

Well... we didn't really "need" a new OC1 design either if you care to use that line of thought.

Where am I going with this? With this particular thread I'm just trying to get a feel for what people actually liked and disliked about the last two river running/creek plastic production C1's. I do feel strongly that although there are kayaks out there that are capable of getting the job done that they truly aren't ideal or for the masses (most c-boaters) to paddle confidently, comfortably or with enjoyment... maybe I'm wrong... maybe I'm not.

I do have a few idea's rambling about in my head... but I'm not exactly certain what they will lead to if they lead to anything at all.

From my perspective a new design would need to be a good river runner, creek capable and still fun to surf or take into a hole (without being a playboat)... it would have to be comfortable and be able to be used by a wide variety of paddlers regardless of their size and skills... pretty much the same premise as the last project.

I'm not making any promises to anyone here because as it's been clearly stated... there may not be a market for a new C1... then again you don't know what the market is for something that no one has actually seen or tried in nearly a decade.

i think the fly is the only do-it-all boat that has ever been multipurpose and not multiuseless. some SCUD owners disagree i know, but i think all the off the do-it-all k1's have been terrible.

Another throught - for river running, I like a boat that is fast and can be pivot turned / stern squirted. That's one thing I miss when going back into an oc-1 or into a full volume c-1 or conversion. Sure, an Atom can be stern squirted/pivoted if you squash the stern or are a monster, but it's not smooth. [I squashed two Slashers and used to really enjoy those, but lost the love - a couple of years of OCs and stable conversions made me find my occasional trips in the old Slasher exercises in riding an ice cube...] A slalom boat (or Viper C-1) will do that, but they are long and <shhhhh> glass. I'm sure that the geometry and volume to make a boat "pivotable" for a wide range of paddler sizes is likely to be a challenge...

For creeky type runs, I do *not* want a stern that is likely to be squirted unintentionally. I don't imagine that pivot turns have much application in creeking runs, either...

Craig Smerda wrote:From my perspective a new design would need to be a good river runner, creek capable and still fun to surf or take into a hole (without being a playboat)... it would have to be comfortable and be able to be used by a wide variety of paddlers regardless of their size and skills... pretty much the same premise as the last project.

IMHO the underlined bits are mutually exclusive!

Creekboats have full volume back ends, rounded and soft edges for bouncing off rocks with.
Boats which are fun to surf have low volume sterns, and boats which are controlable in the hole have fairly sharp edges and flat bottoms.

TheKrikkitWars wrote:

Craig Smerda wrote:From my perspective a new design would need to be a good river runner, creek capable and still fun to surf or take into a hole (without being a playboat)... it would have to be comfortable and be able to be used by a wide variety of paddlers regardless of their size and skills... pretty much the same premise as the last project.

IMHO the underlined bits are mutually exclusive!

Creekboats have full volume back ends, rounded and soft edges for bouncing off rocks with.
Boats which are fun to surf have low volume sterns, and boats which are controlable in the hole have fairly sharp edges and flat bottoms.

well...

oopsiflipped wrote:i think the fly is the only do-it-all boat that has ever been multipurpose and not multiuseless. some SCUD owners disagree i know, but i think all the off the do-it-all k1's have been terrible.

that all depends on your perspective of things...

just make something with the speed and stability of a remix, with a bit more edge, closer to an elongated mystic but maybe just a tiny bit wider...

(sorry )but talking atom vs. fink is soooo oldschool

Take a Finkenmeister.
Widen the botton by about 2-3 inches, particularly in the knee area.
Narrow the widest part of the boat near the seam line by an inch.
Add about 3-4gallons of volme in the stern
Move the cockpit an inch or 2 forward.
Lenghten the cockpin in the front.
Change the outfitting to the Larry Horne saddle.
Done In my book!

TGG!

I like the Atom for it's relative stability compared to a Slasher and speed and precision compared to a Cascade.
I wish it had more volume in the stern so that it came out of holes upright. Yeah a better paddler would help that as well but...

The Fink is one fugly hull. That yellow munge plastic didn't help. But I never paddled one so I don't know more than that.

And i was just thinking of making it sticky...