I don't like C-1ing (now Redline vs. Fink)

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Thu May 19, 2011 4:15 pm

I would consider the redline to be a big boys big playboat. It's not a surface type of boat, and it's definately a huge change from oc. The butt end being under water all the time is the biggest challenge.

One of my buddies paddles one as a kayak. In rapids he is half the time bow in the sky, stern sunk, and trying to regain control. And the rest of the time, he's simply subbed out in drops where everyone else is high and dry. He's about 40 pounds lighter than you.

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Thu May 19, 2011 5:59 pm

I had a relatively easy transition to C1, in spite of coming from a boat with huge initial stability. (An Old Town Pathfinder) The secret was a real C1 (Max II) as my first closed boat. I also had a long history of Yoga and kneeling meditation, which means I could start out with a 5.5" seat. Equipment and preparation! The biggest barrier to real paddling competence was the learning curve of cross-strokes which didn't come completely until after I started training for slalom.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 pm

Bob P wrote:I had a relatively easy transition to C1, in spite of coming from a boat with huge initial stability. (An Old Town Pathfinder) The secret was a real C1 (Max II) as my first closed boat. I also had a long history of Yoga and kneeling meditation, which means I could start out with a 5.5" seat. Equipment and preparation! The biggest barrier to real paddling competence was the learning curve of cross-strokes which didn't come completely until after I started training for slalom.

and Bob weighs... how much?

xmas0c1c1k1 · Post by **xmas0c1c1k1** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:23 pm

the redline is def a playboat at the upper weights
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fb ... =1&theater

Its a fun boat to mess around in doing stern squirts enders cartwheels, but I wouldn't say its confidence inspiring on bigger rapids

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:42 pm

Craig Smerda wrote:
Bob P wrote:I had a relatively easy transition to C1, in spite of coming from a boat with huge initial stability. (An Old Town Pathfinder) The secret was a real C1 (Max II) as my first closed boat. I also had a long history of Yoga and kneeling meditation, which means I could start out with a 5.5" seat. Equipment and preparation! The biggest barrier to real paddling competence was the learning curve of cross-strokes which didn't come completely until after I started training for slalom.
and Bob weighs... how much?

145-150 lbs on my 5'7" frame. Since then, scales have completely lost their accuracy.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Fri May 20, 2011 12:44 am

davel wrote:Haha, devil spawn . You basically hit it on the head. I prefer larger water and find it difficult to eddy out with speed on the offside. There's some manky places where you're going to be able to predict where you'll need a brace (mostly creeking) and the ability to switch onsides at the start of a rapid is pretty important for a safe run in a no-flip situation.

In the spirit of this, I taught myself to roll on my offside tonight at a pool session; Unfortunately the technique was poor, so i tryed teaching myself to cartwheel on my offside too; the technique was even worse and i got plenty of technique boosting roll practice!

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Sat May 21, 2011 3:41 pm

Hello Pat,

People don't paddle C1's because they are easy. C1's are paddled, at least in part, because some boaters like a serious technical challenge. Continue to challenge yourself occasionally in the C1 (you might not want to abandon your other boats right away to keep the frustration level down)! Getting in that C1 will make the entire whitewater experience more interesting and stimulating.

A good analogy would be alpine skiing vs telemark skiing. I have been dabbling with telemarking the last three years and it has transformed my local mountain (Mt Rose in Nevada) into a much more serious place. Crash and burns are common. It is significantly more difficult than alpine skiing. And I need to get back on my alpine skis or snowboard on a regular basis to keep my sanity. Telemarking, like C1ing is definitely worth the effort and pain.

So if you are into pain

and a big ultimate reward, stay with the C1ing. C1ing will make that Class 2+ rapid a much more interesting place to be.

SYOTR,

Bruce Farrenkopf

hammerhead · Post by **hammerhead** » Sun May 22, 2011 2:50 am

My 2 cents; I don't C boat because it's easy, I C boat because it's a challenge(hard). I can paddle class 3's & some class 4's & not be "bored". I don't have much access to anything harder & I don't have to keep stepping it up to get that rush. A penny for your thoughts...

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Sun May 22, 2011 3:35 am

Yup, this is my logic too. I'm looking for a different challenge (not that there's not a load of III-IV rivers I'd still like to try OC1, and a hundred ways I could improve that paddling), so that I can take the C-1 to make some of class II-III runs more entertaining. And, like telemarking, I'd rather create more challenge on relatively safe runs than be looking for steeper, faster challenges with more consequences. I'm not a class V guy.

We'll see if I can find the time and/or the boat to make C-1 stick for me. Losing some weight and doing some stretching wouldn't hurt either, but don't hold your breath.

Pat.

Berkshire Jack · Post by **Berkshire Jack** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:05 am

Hey Pat,
I might have given you one of the reviews, that started you on converting a Redline. I still love mine after 12 years, but luckily my thighs fit comfortably under the cockpit rim and don't get bruised. If I got bruised and tender thighs each time I did a run in the boat, I would probably have abandoned it long ago. As others suggested, it might be better to get a roomier cockpit that won't cause pain. As I get older, I find my feet falling asleep more quickly than in the past, but I can still deal with that issue so far.

Dialing in the outfitting in a conversion does take a while and can be a slow trial and error process, but for the last 7 years I haven't had to touch a thing. It works and works reliably.

The upsides of the Redline C1? I find the surfing and the carving back and forth on a wave to be a delight in the Redline compared to all the others I have been in. (I haven't been in any of the newer composites such as the Sith). This may be a weight dependent issue. I weigh 190 lbs and I am coming to the conclusion that any additional weight may cause too much hull to become engaged, leading to too much drag and perhaps loss of some stability with the chines catching the water in an unpredictable manner. The fact that you find the Redline not being a fine boat for surfing, is probably because you are too heavy for it. I also love the stern squirting in the Redline. And that type of fun is something that would be hard to duplicate in an open boat, or a C1 without a squashed rear deck.

Yea, I do get flipped more than I do in stabler, wider designs, but I find the Redline rolls easily. Your problem rolling it may be a matter of rolling style. I can roll most open boats, but find that it requires a different technique. Also, many people find rolling the Taureau easy, but after 3 years of tries, I could nail about 50 % of my rolls in that boat, and it nearly destroyed my shoulder doing so. My wife finally prodded me to sell it. However, with so many people have absolutely no problem rolling that boat, I'm convinced it was a matter of having a slightly different technique that in my case didn't carry over so well to the hull shape of the Taureau. After 20 years of rolling in one style, I couldn't alter the muscle memory enough to make the transition go easily. Your issue with the Redline rolls may be along similar lines.

I converted a Pyranha Burn to replace the Taureau for creeking and am very happy with the result. Larry Horne's saddle made the conversion go quickly with a minimum of fuss. The Burn doesn't surf and carve quite as well as the Redline, but I didn't convert it for its surfing ability. With the stability and predictability of the Burn, the creeks don't seem as desperate. The Burn rolls as easily as my Redline. When I was creeking in the Redline, I use to hate the unpredictable stern squirt in holes when I was just trying to blast thru them and keep a measure of control in the chaotic turbulance. However, when I am comfortable on a particular river run, the stern squirts add a lot to the enjoyment.

I guess we all have different bodies and skill sets and bring different expectations with us to the river. We even bring different expectations to different rivers. I'm hopeful that if you find a more comfortable hull, you might enjoy the playfulness of C1's yet.

pyc1 · Post by **pyc1** » Tue May 24, 2011 11:24 pm

I'm with Jack (and about the same weight). The Redline is a superb surfing and stern squirting boat, is stable and has more speed than shorter playboats. No problem rolling it. I paddle it up to 3+ or easy 4, no creeking.

You exceed the manufacturer's max weight recommendation, and no boat is going to perform well in that case.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue May 24, 2011 11:50 pm

Dang manufacturers and their weight recommendations!

And I'm not that big/fat of a guy.

As a K-1 the upper limit (if you rely on these sorts of specs) of the Redline is 230lbs, so it's not small compared to most other conversions.

OK, so here's the next logical question - what boat would be a "Redline XL"? Most big hulls seem to be full-volume creekers. So, what boat does fit at 230lbs and is a river-running and surfing machine that can stern squirt etc.? Not really interested in the Atom.

I'll probably keep one of the Redline or Score, just in case, but it sounds like I should also buy Rick's Remix 79 for a more enjoyable experience at this point, you're a convincing bunch - I wonder if they take the same skirt?

Pat.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Wed May 25, 2011 12:01 am

yarnellboat wrote: OK, so here's the next logical question - what boat would be a "Redline XL"? Most big hulls seem to be full-volume creekers. So, what boat does fit at 230lbs and is a river-running and surfing machine that can stern squirt etc.?
Pat.

this one looks good. give it a go and report back

http://www.dagger.com/product/index/pro ... axiom_9_0/

we'll c · Post by **we'll c** » Wed May 25, 2011 12:13 am

For a cheaper option, how about a Wavesport Super EZ? I've recently acquired both an EZ and Big EZ C-1's and like what I've seen so far. I've paddled the EZ a bit and find it good on the easy stuff at my 150 lbs, but have serious "flotsom syndrome" in harder water. It's shorter and slower than the Redline / Axiom options, but width is nice at 27".

Specs at: http://www.eddyflower.com/ShowBoat.aspx ... =109#/home

There is a Super EZ on Bellingham Craig's List that's been for sale for ever! Just make sure to get a skirt with it as it's a big cockpit and may be hard to find a fit for (a fellow C-1er told me). Super EZ is a slightly different design, but plumbman in Ont. loves his, and he has tried the smaller versions with tons of frustration and little success.

Cheers,

Bob

we'll c · Post by **we'll c** » Wed May 25, 2011 12:17 am

Having said that (above) I have a Remix 69 which is my "confidence boat" and makes a much better first C-1.

My kayaking and C-1 experiences all suggest: get enough boat to start with, and work you way down in size / playfulness! Otherwise it's the school of hard knocks, and many rolls - apparently, not my style!

Cheers,

Bob