I think "swamped canoe" is an important distinction. I am definitly a non-painter boater regardless of craft. Nicely sized grab loops...absolutely.
And I have to agree that painters are advantageous in some situations.
but back to swimmin with a swamped boat. In a flip an swim situation I'd suggest keepin the boat upsidedown. Much lighter to handle etc, but you have to be in close contact with it to keep it that way sometimes, thus no painter.
And that what I dont get about painters, if the boat swamped to the gunnels, it aint bein stopped by someone in the water on a rope.
My few cents...ya know I've swum alot a boats an aint niver wrapped one
Open Canoe Painter Lines
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Longboatin
- CBoats Addict
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painters
Both pro and con reasons work for me so....
I have painter on the bow cause I like to jump out of the boat and shoot photos. If a lead boat on a good "Kodachrome" (??) drop sometimes there is just time to jump out and hang onto the painter and shoot. Score one for vanity over safety.
I also have painter on the bow for a safety reason, others safety, not mine. In a canyon sometimes, no make that often, a rescue requires jumping onto a rock shelf and chucking a throw rope quickly, with no place to beach and secure a canoe. (west coast rivers)
Score one for repeated experience over theory
On the stern I don't have a painter. Instead I have small 60' throw bag biner'ed onto the stern grab loop and the bag itself is bungied onto the back deck plate. The reason being that if leading a drop and failing a roll (!!!) I have to be able do a lonely self rescue and swimming in on this system works for me. Rolling is better but shite happens, so I allow for it.
Having had my share of trashings and having been a participant in several serious rescues I combine a safety style that is combination of logic and personality. It shouldn't be that way but somethings I just plain feel more comfortable about doing and becoming proficient at. I take Swiftwater courses and do rescue annual practice and review theory but personal style does seem to come into play, so I allow for it.
I have painter on the bow cause I like to jump out of the boat and shoot photos. If a lead boat on a good "Kodachrome" (??) drop sometimes there is just time to jump out and hang onto the painter and shoot. Score one for vanity over safety.
I also have painter on the bow for a safety reason, others safety, not mine. In a canyon sometimes, no make that often, a rescue requires jumping onto a rock shelf and chucking a throw rope quickly, with no place to beach and secure a canoe. (west coast rivers)
Score one for repeated experience over theory
On the stern I don't have a painter. Instead I have small 60' throw bag biner'ed onto the stern grab loop and the bag itself is bungied onto the back deck plate. The reason being that if leading a drop and failing a roll (!!!) I have to be able do a lonely self rescue and swimming in on this system works for me. Rolling is better but shite happens, so I allow for it.
Having had my share of trashings and having been a participant in several serious rescues I combine a safety style that is combination of logic and personality. It shouldn't be that way but somethings I just plain feel more comfortable about doing and becoming proficient at. I take Swiftwater courses and do rescue annual practice and review theory but personal style does seem to come into play, so I allow for it.
Last edited by Einar on Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
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I agree with you that it is usually better to keep the boat upside down. It usually stays that way for me whether I have hold of it by a painter or by the grab loop but that might depend on the boat and how it is bagged.Longboatin wrote:I think "swamped canoe" is an important distinction. I am definitly a non-painter boater regardless of craft. Nicely sized grab loops...absolutely.
And I have to agree that painters are advantageous in some situations.
but back to swimmin with a swamped boat. In a flip an swim situation I'd suggest keepin the boat upsidedown. Much lighter to handle etc, but you have to be in close contact with it to keep it that way sometimes, thus no painter.
And that what I dont get about painters, if the boat swamped to the gunnels, it aint bein stopped by someone in the water on a rope.
My few cents...ya know I've swum alot a boats an aint niver wrapped one
As for not being able to stop a swamped boat with a painter and pull it in, I can tell you that I am no Charles Atlas, I have taken many hundreds of swims with a canoe over the decades as well, I have never wrapped a canoe on a rock or lost one on a river, and I have done exactly what I described at least scores of times.
If "lengthy" is around here somewhere, he can testify that he saw me do exactly that on the lower Tellico below "Bounce off Boulder" (Keyhole) this spring at ALF.
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TheKrikkitWars
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Sorry if you feel I was unfair;yarnellboat wrote:Krikkit, Not fair! You only clipped part of my sentence... I included and whatever works for you.
I just clipped out the bit that I found to be alarming; as the rest of the post was fine.
Qualified or not, that phrase (to my mind at least) could be most deletarious in the hands of the inexperienced (though, you make a good case for paddlers who are more informed considering the norms of their usual paddling group as a factor in chooseing their equipment.)
Joshua Kelly - "More George Smiley than James Bond"
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
CBoats Moderator - Not necessarily representing the CBoats staff though...(I'll use words like "moderator", "We" and "CBoats" to make it clear when I am)
Well - maybe the painter wouldn't have matter?Craig Smerda wrote:
Please elaborate...
philcanoe wrote:... know a fellow who lost a finger, because he didn't have a painter.
Wanted to illustrate, just how dangerous it can be to grab hold of a overturned canoe. It was a full sized OCA with out bags. Jim was helping set up a slalom course, and when then canoe flipped... he simply grabbed hold to flip back over, and ooops it was gone. I've bruised and smashed fingers this was before. That why I always grab a loop, or push the boat around on the overturned bottom.... like Longboatin said, leaving the air under'em when I can. Although I find it preferable to hook with a t-grip if possible.
Personally - I like my painters long, and then make them shorter by tying to nearest thwart. This does a couple things. Number one it keeps them short, and keeps from tangling around other things. But it also adds a lot of strength (another anchor) in case there's an actual need to z-drag using a grab-loop. It's backed up, with no single point of failure. Plus this allows me, to simply hook under the rope with a t-grip, or find and pull on immediately by hand. My usual method is to double back from mini-thwart to grab-loop, keeping it relatively tight. And if enough left over, to then leave a little slack when going to a middle thwart. (see below.. differ strokes) In my Fly... which is without a front mini-thwart - I loop (clove hitch) around airbag over-strap (webbing), and go back to grab loop.
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ccwalbridge
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I'm old enough to remember painters on canoes & kayaks
Rafts, too! They can be useful, but they have to be stowed right. I almost never see painters in use by whitewater paddlers.
Yet another reason, swiped from a different thread (see the Encore post) to have a painter.I did have a "hey y'all, watch this" moment on the Dry Fork of Cheat at "Hole Brothers"in an Encore. I knew I'd get stuck but it's a no-consequences place. The lack of chines makes it hole bait. I went in on a side-surf. Filled the boat. Could NOT get out. I grabbed the bow painter, jumped out of the boat past the boil line, dragged the boat out, and had a snack.
Good fun.
My opinion: If you're going to have a painter, make it a floating one and don't have a knot or anything else that can snag on something at the end.
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sbroam
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*this*milkman wrote:...My opinion: If you're going to have a painter, make it a floating one and don't have a knot or anything else that can snag on something at the end.
C-Boats Moderator
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Smurfwarrior
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I like having one available on the bow so that I can jump out and secure the boat without having to drag it up a steep bank or pull it out of the water, so that I can either help someone quicker or (fill in the blank).
Is it totally safe to boat with one tucked deep between the hull and airbag? No. But neither is boating or even just driving to the river. We can try and reduce the risks we take, but the proven benefits a bow line gives me outweighs the 'possible' risks it might add.
Each and every one of us must make our own minds up about what we are comfortable doing..... I'll do my thing, you do yours.
Now, don't get me started on my stern rescue line with quick release cleat. Looks like some of your heads would explode thinking about that concept.
Is it totally safe to boat with one tucked deep between the hull and airbag? No. But neither is boating or even just driving to the river. We can try and reduce the risks we take, but the proven benefits a bow line gives me outweighs the 'possible' risks it might add.
Each and every one of us must make our own minds up about what we are comfortable doing..... I'll do my thing, you do yours.
Now, don't get me started on my stern rescue line with quick release cleat. Looks like some of your heads would explode thinking about that concept.
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Smurfwarrior
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Oh Lappie, you troublemaker! Hahhaa, alright then.
On big water runs with noobs, I utilize a stern mounted quick release tow system for pulling a boat to shore. It consists of a small loop o parachute cord tied to the drain slot in the wood inwale that is even with my strongside hip. A Harkin spring loaded, low profile pinch cleat is mounted on the thwart, a few inches from the gunwales on the strongside. A 6mm cord, with about 6" of 'end' is attached to the cleat then runs back through the rear deck mounted grab loop and back up to where it firmly attaches to the cord loop using one of those fancy quick clip marine shackles that is pretty small. Before the shackle there is a small amount of foam that keeps the shackle from sinking.
I normally don't paddle with it rigged but if I'm in situation where I'm retrieving boats in big water I have it rigged. To use it I just paddle up to the boat (which for me is always a kayak I'm fetching) flip it rightened up and then unclip shackle from the loop, clip shackle to a grab loop and off I go. Should I need to release the boat quickly, I simply drop my hand down to the rear thwart on strongside, which is very close to my hip, and simply lift up the cord out of the cleat. The cord pulls through the rear grab loop easily and I'm free. I've found that releasing the boat near shore then snowplowing it the final few feet works good and the cord still attached to the kayak gives the swimmer something to use to secure the boat quickly.
This works for me, I've tested it heavily/frequently and I'm much more comfortable using this to tow a boat than a pigtail on a rescue vest (which now some are yelling outloud that "is not for towing boats!")
I use it for large, high volume (25-30k cfs) rivers where a loose boat can run for miles. Would never suggest using it on a smaller river or creek, heck I suggest you forget all that u just read.
On big water runs with noobs, I utilize a stern mounted quick release tow system for pulling a boat to shore. It consists of a small loop o parachute cord tied to the drain slot in the wood inwale that is even with my strongside hip. A Harkin spring loaded, low profile pinch cleat is mounted on the thwart, a few inches from the gunwales on the strongside. A 6mm cord, with about 6" of 'end' is attached to the cleat then runs back through the rear deck mounted grab loop and back up to where it firmly attaches to the cord loop using one of those fancy quick clip marine shackles that is pretty small. Before the shackle there is a small amount of foam that keeps the shackle from sinking.
I normally don't paddle with it rigged but if I'm in situation where I'm retrieving boats in big water I have it rigged. To use it I just paddle up to the boat (which for me is always a kayak I'm fetching) flip it rightened up and then unclip shackle from the loop, clip shackle to a grab loop and off I go. Should I need to release the boat quickly, I simply drop my hand down to the rear thwart on strongside, which is very close to my hip, and simply lift up the cord out of the cleat. The cord pulls through the rear grab loop easily and I'm free. I've found that releasing the boat near shore then snowplowing it the final few feet works good and the cord still attached to the kayak gives the swimmer something to use to secure the boat quickly.
This works for me, I've tested it heavily/frequently and I'm much more comfortable using this to tow a boat than a pigtail on a rescue vest (which now some are yelling outloud that "is not for towing boats!")
I use it for large, high volume (25-30k cfs) rivers where a loose boat can run for miles. Would never suggest using it on a smaller river or creek, heck I suggest you forget all that u just read.
