t-formex

[ian123]

I m glad Esquif is trying.

[Sir Adam]

Every person runs their business differently, and has their reasons for doing so (I know lots of folks have opinions on how we should do things differently at CBoats.net too!). Jacques has created a great, well respected business and clearly tries to do things right. While we might like to have a bit more knowledge about what is going on behind the scenes (I know I would!) I also respect him as a fellow paddler and businessman.

I'm sure when he's ready to say more we'll know:)

[insolence]

ezwater, of course some composite materials are tough and repairable...but they are not more popular because of the price. Unlike thermoplastics, composites require a lot more manual steps in manufacturing, combined with higher basic material cost, and are therefore more time and cost expensive.


it would be interesting to see how a composite boat lasts in class IV and V creeking, regarding the life time span in relation to time on the water, paddler's weight, gradient and character of the rivers ....
then again nobody has statistics how many PE boats break under which exact conditions. And who has the money and time to make an actual study on this.
Cheakjak has a good point - many pro kayakers go trough one or two boats per year!
This and the lack of accurate data should be considered before badmouthing anything or anyone, as well as the average user (read: the non-engineers, non-manufacturing professionals) should not forget what a major challenge and effort the development of something new indeed is.

[cheajack]

Nova Craft Ocoee, Esquif L'edge lite, any Blackfly boat, and Sacho and Inferno by Millbrook are all the same price + or- a hundred bucks or so. Composite open boats are not more expensive than thermoplastic or Royalex. Slalom, race boats are another story and a comparison to them would be an apples and oranges comparison.

[Bob P]

ezwater, of course some composite materials are tough and repairable...but they are not more popular because of the price. Unlike thermoplastics, composites require a lot more manual steps in manufacturing, combined with higher basic material cost, and are therefore more time and cost expensive.

Not necessarily. Given the production numbers of commercial boats vs a typical composite layup, different methods can greatly reduce the cost of a composite. Instead of manually cutting the material, a water-jet can accurately cut 10 pieces at once. A permanent "male" vacuum bag (usually silicone) cuts the time and effort by 70%.

The advantage to a composite is the comparatively miniscule tooling cost, even including what I describe above. As long as the volume is the same.

it would be interesting to see how a composite boat lasts in class IV and V creeking, regarding the life time span in relation to time on the water, paddler's weight, gradient and character of the rivers

Call me Old School, but I regard bouncing down damp rocks as boat abuse, not paddling. But - I have had many "encounters" with rocks, and paddled away. A composite handles abrasion very well. Rarely, I've had to put on a patch after I've got home, even more rarely did the boat immediately start leaking badly. That's what duct tape is for. Typically though, the lighter weight of a composite boat allows me to avoid the ugly situations that might happen with a heavier "tougher" boat.

[insolence]

I should have been a bit more clear, sorry, I'm not always good at composing a message that contains all I actially want to say.

so now...of course I would not compare a typical composite layup with the regular PE creekboat. I was thinking about more specialized composite layups. There is a very small French company who might not even be known on your side of the pond, who do composite kayaks. I think they use dynel as a fiber reinforcement. Those are extremely durable, a little lighter than a comparable PE kayak, but they are double the price (2000 Euros compared to 1000 Euro +/- a few hundred). It is not known to me how those costs are composed.

In terms of failure behaviour - I actually agree with not going down damped rocks, or actively abusing the boat, but comparing what the composite boats I use can do in terms of material strength, I have a hard time imagining how a standard composite boat (like a millbrook) would withstand a season, for example on the Green Narrows, or comparable rivers. I'm less concerned about abrasion, but rather about impacts of which not all are avoidable.

[cheajack]

Not trying to make an argument here, but I think abrasion is far worse on composites than impact. I bought a used Composite Creations open boat from some folks that had paddled it mostly on shallow class II runs and a good bit of the gelcoat was gone and the cloth abraded through in several places. I had the Magnet C-1 now owned by Sir Adam and pitoned it so hard once that the cockpit rim bruised the tops of my thighs, but not even a chip in the bow.

[KNeal]

it would be interesting to see how a composite boat lasts in class IV and V creeking, regarding the life time span in relation to time on the water, paddler's weight, gradient and character of the rivers ....

Here is a little bit of interesting (to me, at least) history of creeking and boats. Jeff Snyder, and crew, were using Thillseeker inflatable kayaks for running steep creeks back in the 90's because of the abuse those runs put on boats. Anyone else recall that era of creeking? Anyone see them doing it?

[magicmike]

I remember the "water balloon"days. Even bought one at the NOC swap meet in 1995 to get in on the fun. Gave it to my wife after realizing the lack of performance of the inflatables of the time.-M-