C-Forum

Wow. Great stuff. Thank you. I'll get to work on it.

It was, in fact, Andrew who taught me to roll, but, as I said, I learn such things slowly and with great difficulty. (It might be easier to find something I'm actually good at, but I love OC-1 whitewater, so I persevere). If I could get to water I could practice what he taught me, but for now there is no water around here, and that's why I was looking for dry land exercises.

At the risk of my credibility, my roll isn't where it should be either yet. I know a thing or two about it, and am passionate about it because I'm struggling with a couple muscular imbalances. It's taken me a couple physio therapists and lots of research to come down to the cause of it.
So I think I made about every imaginable mistake when it comes to rolling . The good thing is, I recognize most of the mistakes, and often have an answer to it.

I'm convinced that my own roll will improve dramatically once I finally got those muscle issues sorted. I've done my share of combat rolls, but I fail yet too often simply because the glutes are too tired. Being stronger and more coordinated in the right muscle groups really helps as well to progress faster in your case.

btw, a couple of important insights in the biomechanics of rolling, came to me during a session "how to roll a kayak "

if you'd go for easy, you wouldn't be in an OC1 . So stick to it, find the training that works for you, and you'll get there.

I learned to roll in a canoe and as per average it took a while but I got it.

After years i decided to take a kayak rolling session in a pool. I got it instantly, clean first try, and thereafter.
Now that is a pool session and proofing it in combat has been a little more stressful but...
I notice newbie kayakers in pools learn to roll quickly.

Just throwing it out there but maybe learning to roll in a lower volume, less height kayak will help with establishing the foundations of success and confidence. Just an idea.
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I'd like to know more about Pauls, "step and flipper".-M-

magicmike wrote:I'd like to know more about Pauls, "step and flipper".-M-

Me too, MM!

Paul -- please! . . .

Einar's point about learning first in the pool, with a smaller hull, makes sense.

I've had a hand in teaching new C-boaters basic rolling techniques, and I start them off in a C-1. I think they find it easier to nail technique first in the little hull, before progressing to an open boat.

Rick

Paul Mason demonstrates an OC1 roll.
"If you roll is a bit elusive, I think there are a couple of points you can key on in this video clip.
#1 Set up with paddle blade in the air/at the surface. Grip hand deep.
#2 Step to right the boat, and flipper to push yourself towards and up across the deck.
#3 Keep you head down and drive it over the offside gunwale to keep the momentum going.
(Credit to Andrew Westwood for breaking this process down to the "step and flipper".)

http://youtu.be/qaTy2LlynN8

What s the step?

I must have blinked and missed it.-M-

There might be something in the kayak and C1 thing.

I didn't find it that easy moving from kayak rolls to C1 roll (note that I can only do 1 C1 roll and about 10 different kayak rolls) but having learned my C1 roll I can do it in a kayak with a C1 paddle.
My OC1 roll is almost identical to my C1 roll, the timing might need to be a little more accurate in OC1 but I certainly used my old C1 roll as the basis for developing my OC1 roll. Although to be honest I didn't get it by practice, it just suddenly started working when I had spent some time working on other OC1 skills on the artificial WW course - clearly a case of getting a general feel for the boat coupled with experience of other rolls just made it gel when I had pretty much stopped trying!

Think of what your legs do when you climb steps. One pushes down as the other pulls up. Do that with your knees when rolling.

That makes sense. Thanks. I've been concentrating on raising my onside knee without much thought of my offside knee.-M-

As some have noted, we can’t actually see what the knees or hips are doing, cause of the dam boat! Oh, for transparent hulls! Nevertheless, it’s good to envisage this step-up action when rolling.

One thing that can be seen here, as well as in Bob Foote’s video, is the blade on or above the water surface. Paul goes so far as to make the blade as a flipper. When I fail my roll, it’s often cause I’m hurrying in turbulent water and attempt to roll up without the blade first reaching the surface.

There is something in favor and against starting to roll in a C1. I know of examples having a bomber C1 roll, but having a tough time transferring that roll to an OC1. Just as well as there are examples that have a bomber C1 roll, followed by a bomber OC1 roll.
And I've seen first-time-in-oc1 kayakers high-brace rolling an OC1 too.

The main difference for me is the speed an duration of execution. In a C1, you need to be a bit more explosive in the beginning, but once you get it over it's tipping point, the rest comes almost for free. Whereas in an OC1, you need to drive quite a bit longer with the lower body to get the job done.

The advantage of a C1 is that you can keep your had low easier. So I think some of the better designs to learn an OC1 roll are boats like a spanish fly, big dog force oc1, esquif salza, CU-fly, ... . You have the volume, the width, but you can keep your arms low, and thus also remove some of the tendency to lift your head too soon.

In case anyone was concerned that this thread would somehow die, take comfort.

Slight change of topic.

When practicing rolling on a lake I have often thought how nice it would be if I could hold my breath for three minutes so that I could make several attempts to roll without having to get out of the boat, etc., and also feel exactly what is going on and work on building muscle memory when I finally get it. Then, today, it hit me. [b]A SNORKEL[/b]

Has anybody ever tried practicing using a snorkel? I wonder whether the typical sprorting goods store snorket would do it, or whether it would have to be modified with a longer, flexible hose. Paul Mason, with all your ingenuity (portable rapids, etc.) you certainly could come up with such a thing.

It's all timing, even if your roll is arm dominant (not ideal but not uncommon from what I see..)

If you rush the low brace phase you won't finish, this can be due to numerous things on the river like fear of what's coming up, etc.
The open canoe roll is a smooth rotation not a snap, in C1 I have a snap, it's much quicker but OC has the issue of water in the boat, your roll speed has to allow for that water to also rotate in the hull (add more water channels in your saddle), "HEAD DOWN" is the obvious key! You have to keep it in the water as long as possible then finish with your face sliding over your airbag.

Above all don't give up on a good roll just because you feel it was weak, even weak rolls can come up if you hang in there and exaggerate the finishing steps.

Not dry practice I know but I hopenit helps a little