Cross forward stroke

[FullGnarlzOC]

Cross Forward J Stroke is good to go - Eddy McGnarlz Approved (take that for what you will).

Power, speed, power. As most of you know, a Detonator is a slow boat. This is one of the first things I learned when I got in it, so I had to compensate for that somehow, and having a powerful onside/offside stroke were pretty important to do that.

Here is a quick demonstration of it. Ideally, you want to be more forward, and stroke harder/faster. But even at the half-butt pace at which I'm paddling, you can see that it takes a slow boat up to speed pretty quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c2qDPm3nME

Let me know what you guys think....and yeah, my paddle is a bit too long, but it's an 'aquabreak' and has tons of marks on it, so it's gonna break soon.

[french erick]

I'm afraid I won't elevate the debate.
I watched that footage and it looks very neat.
I have a strong suspicion that I'll find this hard as hades as that movement really doesn't look like something I'd go for. I'll experiment anyway...you do carry a bit of speed on.

I find the end of the footage interesting. Are you deliberately carving to turn on your onside, or is you xdeck powerfull enough to initiate the turn?

[FullGnarlzOC]

I don't suspect a lot of people will find this something that they feel 'comfortable with'. It does leave you a tab bit vulnerable(as does any cross forward). But the speed/power are there, so that's what i'm looking for. I believe that's the name of the game at this point. Speed and Power. Sure a lot of your older canoers will tell you it's all about finesse. But if you have that same level of finesse, and some serious power as well... the skies are the limits.

As for the carve... It was probably lean, and xdeck doing the turn. Any decent xdeck should be able to initiate a turn, especially with a bit of onside lean.

[yarnellboat]

My body & mind just won't allow me to turn my thum back for the powerface-out recovery.

If you need/want correction on your offside, have to tried an equivalent little snap of a "ww J", with the thumb going forward and using the back of the paddle? I'll try that. But I expect I'll stick with alternatating onside and offside power.

Thanks, Pat.

[Bob P]

I fiddled around with it yesterday. Definitely awkward for me and, in my boat, I had to start the J so early that it turned the boat to the other side rather than keeping it straight. It looks kind of interesting, but my normal pull is much longer, stronger and keeps the boat under better control. Maybe with more practice...

[FullGnarlzOC]

Bob - that's what I was doing, long powerful cross-strokes. I felt comfortable doing that, and then I got a couple of people that were trying to tell me to shorten up my CFs... so after meddling around on flat-water for a while, I found that this CF J snap works pretty well for me.

As time goes on, it will only get cleaner. I was just curious as to if, anyone uses a stroke similar to it, and opinions of it. It feels good to me, and its nice getting that much power out of the Xdeck stroke - this makes up for the slow boat.

The nice part is, if I smooth out all my power strokes, and maximize efficiency, not only will I have great speed in the detonator, but when I switch to something faster... then its serious game time.

Here's a question for you guys - What do you think is a quicker stroke - an onside power stroke, with a quick pry? or an onside J snap, instead of the pry? I'm particularly interested in those who have tried both over the years.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Pat - that's the idea, alternate. I only really use that for certain situations.

1) Crossing the grain of heavy/wavy current and/or on fast moving tongues - where my onside is upstream. So, since I'm left handed, if I'm holding a left angle, and going from river right to left. I can throw that CF stroke many times and jet across the current, without spending much time at all correcting. If I was to do onside strokes in a situation like that, the boat would want to turn right or straighten up downstream, thus I wouldn't be moving across the grain as effectively.

2) Off-side ferrys. For me that would be going from Surfers left to surfers right. Instead of having to use correction prys, I can ferry much more effectively with CFs with a off-side lean to allow water to flow under the boat.

3) Eddys on my left side, that require a lot of speed and power to get to. I can propell myself across the eddy line, and begin the eddy turn with the CF

4) Any situation where I need to start an onside carve, so I can blast several onside power strokes - These can easily be followed by CFs to maximize speed, and minimize correction.

Now, of course - any effect CF stroke can be used for any of those situations.

[Bob P]

Except when I'm doing a single cross stroke to avoid doing an onside pry, most of my cross strokes are either sweeps to do a difficult offside ferry or cross/duffeks to keep the bow under control. I rarely use it strictly for power. My latest video shows some typical moves, although since this was an S-turn drill, there's a lot of sweeps in the eddy to keep the boat from turning too much.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Yeah I've seen that video. Nice video. Good moves on it, and nice strokes. A lot of people use that CF/duffex. I didn't really gel with it that well when I was practicing my CFs. I can see me using it for catching eddys on the right, once I get it to where I'm comfortable doing it.

Your doing what I had a tough time doing, making sure you slice the blade outward on the recovering. A lot of the times I did it, it would be parellel with the boat, and not slightly outward. So when i tried moving it through the water, a lot of the time, the recovery would push into the boat and hang me up pretty good. I just need practice with it.

[TomAnon]

Well watched the vid.

All arm + no torso rotation = very tiring for me

However you are strong, so, it works

[FullGnarlzOC]

Like i said, it needs to be cleaned up. I use back, shoulder, hips in current. The vid, was more of a demonstration, to show what's going on with the hands, and paddle. But good point though, the back/shoulders/hips can be utulized much more on the stroke - only making it more effective and more powerful. I just need to make it habit to do it all the time. Practice like you play. Once it's cleaned up, I'm golden on power when I go to xDeck.

[yarnellboat]

Now, of course - any effective CF stroke can be used for any of those situations.

I think this sums it up for me. Even in the vid, I'm not sure what the "J snap" is adding, or whether you're just paddling against an arc. To me, it doesn't really seem any diffeent than a normal CF, accept that it uses the thumb-backward recovery, which I find awkward (and was taught to avoid).

Onside, I think a ww pry is a much quicker correction than a "J snap"... isn't that the whole reason the ww pry was invented! Because it avoids the wrist rotation, the pry can be done more snappily than the J, and it can be done right at the hip, whereas the J is more comfortable with a longer stroke further toward the stern.

I find the J is perfetly usable in ww when cruising and relaxed; after years of tripping, I still use it a lot. But when huffing it to maintain control/line, if I need onside correction I definitely prefer a quick pry really sharp & close to the hull at the hip.

Bad J-strokes (i.e., reverse sweeps) are the bain of many learners of ww canoeing, literally holding them back from controlling their boats better.

Pat.

[FullGnarlzOC]

You also see of lot of people sitting on their stern prys and low braces. These are the same people that can't make a lot of moves, and stick to the Cl II. Haven't realized yet that it's an aggressive sport, and you have to kick it into gear like you would any other.

I think I found a keeper in the CF J, but not necessarly with the onside J snap. Purely because I think I can get it to where I hardly need a correction. Starting to figure out, as someone said before, that it's all about the lean. With a proper lean and stroke combination, little correction would be needed. Maybe a xDeck stroke or two thrown in. This would mean that all strokage is pushing the boat forward, and nothing else.

The name of the game for me, is to hit every possible move I can, always searching for the next hardest move. I'd say on average, I flip 3-5 times a run (34 since may 1st-now), I roll everytime, so why not push it you know... A lot of the time, they happen because I needed a LITTLE more power. or I was a stroke off somehow. If I can continue to build on power, I'll have plenty of extra time to get to places - that's the goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4VUFZYFsg
Those were my strokes as of a month ago. Even though that CF looks awkward, it felt comfortable to me - but I knew i needed to shorten it up, thus the xDeck J. My forward stroke has gotten much shorter and snappier too. By watching the video, you'll see what I mean; something needed to be done.


This was just some ridiculous move we made up. We were on our local creek at low flow, and were in desperate need of some canoeing action... so we dragged those 4 miles, of mostly boogie water out as long as we could. This was also the day that I caught my paddle on the downstream side of my boat on a rock, flipped, and ran a class III drop upside down. That was exciting.

[Larry Horne]

knarls,

I know I'm wasting my time on you, because you have it all figured out (but seem to have a LOT of excuses), but maybe someone else will benefit.

Your cross forward stroke a month ago didn't need to be shortened up, the length was fine. It just needed to start and finish more forward, as does your on side forward.

Your cross forward now is just as bad. It still needs to be placed much more forward. If you do that, and take out the J thingy which is doing nothing but ROBBING power, then you might have something. But right now, (hate to say it but you ask for it) it's a weak, goofy stroke.

K>I>S>S

watch the pros.
and watch BobP's excellent video again and again. That's a proper stroke. Why not learn that one instead of making something up.

If you have to do everything your own way, cool. But it's really lame to ask for advice, then throw it back (every bit of it) in our faces.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Like I said, I messed around with the stroke that Bob was using in that video - wasn't workin for me. I know that's the stroke that most people use. But it doesnt work for me. I found one that works, and was curious, as to if anyone else uses it. Just because something has been done for decades a certain way, doesn't make it the only way.

That's like an old school tennis player saying "its all about serve and volley" - as that's how it was done in the old days. As opposed to ripping it down by saying it's "goofy" - it would be more helpful, if you'd point out potentional problems I might run into. I only know so much as of this point(which is why I'm here in the first place - to learn).

And LARRY - It's not about doing it my 'own way', it's about doing what's comfortable for me, and what makes the boat go foward the fastest. Like I said before, POWER AND SPEEEEEEED. I'll use whatever gets me the most of it.....'weak stroke' my arsee...show me a cross stroke that accels the boat that quickly, from a stand still - that way I have another option.