Got Speed?!?

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:07 pm

How many of you are still talking about creeks (( dam

hijackers )) even you Tommy?

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:26 am

Im talkin about WW moves in general. On tight creeks, such as Tremont....a bigger boat is more of a challenge perhaps. But you also have stability makin up for the size.

By the way, cadster - I paddled San Teehla and Upper Big Creek in my Viper 11(check those creeks out on AW

) when I picked my boats up in Janaury for what has been referred to as "TommyFest". And yeah it made those creeks harder...but it was a better option than paddling the Maxim on class V. For all those that weren't on the low water ocoee run that day.... I swam three times(hardly ever swim) on class III. So the rest of the time down there, I paddled the Viper11. and waited til I got home to work on outfitting and get use to Maxim.

Try paddling San Teehla, low flow with a Viper 11 or Ocoee.

Tremont is like the UY - and I'll shred the Upper this summer in the Viper11 n let u know how it goes.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:31 am

With a Viper 11 or Ocoee type of boat - I dont see creeking to be necessarily harder - but I will say that it will limit the amount of drops that you can run. Some drops are simply too tight to run in a longer boat (see Back Alley Brawl on C&D: Episode 2)

Heck both those first OC1 descents on Van Campens and Adams Creek couldn't be done in full with an 11ft boat.

But lets assume that all drops are good to go in a 11ft boat while creeking... You have a disadvantage boat scouting in a 11ft boat, because it is harder to react as quickly as you could in a short boat. But if you know the lines... 11ft boat is cake.

Pinning is the biggest problem that you'll run into with a longer boat, and most pins can be avoided by using sideslip strokes, such as draws, cross-draws, and prys. Also, all you really need to do is get the bow on the correct side of the rock that you are about to make a move on, and the back end will come around when you throw a forward stroke.

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:45 am

'kay...

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:53 am

So here's another question.... I think this question makes more sense... What's more important to you - stability or responsiveness?

Longer boats have that stability on lockdown, whereas shorter boats are responsive... some more than others.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:54 am

FullGnarlzOC wrote: Try paddling San Teehla, low flow with a Viper 11 or Ocoee.

Tremont is like the UY - and I'll shred the Upper this summer in the Viper11 n let u know how it goes.

Been there done that...

Yes, in a Sunburst II and a 13'foot Composite (glass) Edge.... A 11' Viper would be piece of cake. You do know 11 feet is just 1 foot longer than a L'edge on both ends. The boat that pushed the 13' envelope (at least for Frankie) was the Darter which is the Yellow canoe in the first Ocoee picture (of Bailey's ender http://cboats.net/util/fullsize.php?image_id=316) in the CBoats search boats function. That's me in it, next to Dale Johnson in that White R-Lite Viper. I got tired of catching rocks on creeks - Johnnies and the Blockage on the Blackburn in particular . So it was designed, and then he went shorter. So the Darter2 came out, and then he went shorter. You're preaching to the choir...

You asked: What's more important to you - stability or responsiveness? The stability of a boat is way overrated, because the paddler makes his boat so... otherwise he's made a

bad purchase.

As for long boats - there was some mightily unstable ones. Being Long doesn't necessarily mean stable. Being Long and wide might. I believe the Mohawk Challenger was a perfect example of this. Another was the Mad River Explorer, which was even marketed as having less initial stability.

Just because we've got some gray hair (or no hair at all), doesn't mean we still don't know about paddling.

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:07 am

FullGnarlzOC wrote:Longer boats have that stability on lockdown...

Get in a 13' slalom boat for a bit and get back to us!

FullGnarlzOC wrote:...whereas shorter boats are responsive

Get in a 13' slalom boat for a bit and get back to us!

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:56 am

philcanoe wrote:
You asked: What's more important to you - stability or responsiveness? The stability of a boat is way overrated, because the paddler makes his boat so... otherwise he's made a bad purchase.

As for long boats - there was some mightily unstable ones. Being Long doesn't necessarily mean stable. Being Long and wide might. I believe the Mohawk Challenger was a perfect example of this. Another was the Mad River Explorer, which was even marketed as having less initial stability.

Just because we've got some gray hair (or no hair at all), doesn't mean we still don't know about paddling.

Phil - Don't think that I dont know that you old heads have forgotten more than i may ever know. especially you sir.

Eddyhops - i'll try a 13ft slalom boat n get back to you. I usually refrain from paddling other boats than my 'all-water' boat....aka whatever boat I creek in. Everyday on the water is precious at this point in terms of continuing to progress...because the Green Gnarlz race is getting closer as every day goes by

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:20 am

philcanoe wrote:The boat that pushed the 13' envelope (at least for Frankie) was the Darter which is the Yellow canoe in the first Ocoee picture (of Bailey's ender http://cboats.net/util/fullsize.php?image_id=316) in the CBoats search boats function. That's me in it, next to Dale Johnson in that White R-Lite Viper.

I took that picture

That's all I have to add here.

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:28 am

Please don't tell Jim Little you can't creek in an Ocoee. He's obviously been doing it wrong all these years.

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:30 pm

cheajack wrote:Please don't tell Jim Little you can't creek in an Ocoee. He's obviously been doing it wrong all these years.

I bet I can find four rivers he wouldn't be able to physically fit the occoe down... hades I can think of a couple where you'd be hard pressed to get a L'edge or Prelude through.

jharris · Post by **jharris** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:48 pm

It's been said, but it really depends on the river. Normally I paddle an Atom which isn't a longboat, but it's decently fast and a little less maneuverable than many C1 conversions.
I've been on class II/III rivers (bigger rivers, as opposed to creeks) in a playboat that were tough just because I didn't have the speed to make any eddies (of course a converted playboat isn't too stable either, but that's a separate issue). In the Atom that water wouldn't be an issue at all.
That said I've been on small creeks that I wouldn't say are very difficult, but just didn't work out with the Atom. If you're in a chute that takes a sharp turn, it doesn't matter how straightforward the line is-- if your boat's too long to fit in it you're going to get run into some rocks.

I'd call myself more of a long/fast boat person on the whole though. On big rivers, they'll be better at getting and staying on line. On small rivers, they won't be so good at making the lines, but the tradeoff is that when you do mess up and end up somewhere unintended you punch holes a hades of a lot better in a fast boat, plus most of them are more stable.
They're also much better at keeping up with kayakers if you're paddling in a mixed boat group (blasphemy, I know)

bearboater · Post by **bearboater** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:19 am

[quote="FullGnarlzOC"][quote="philcanoe"]
You asked: What's more important to you - stability or responsiveness? The stability of a boat is way overrated, because the paddler makes his boat so... otherwise he's made a :o bad purchase.

As for long boats - there was some mightily unstable ones. Being Long doesn't necessarily mean stable. Being Long and wide might. I believe the Mohawk Challenger was a perfect example of this. Another was the Mad River Explorer, which was even marketed as having less initial stability.

Just because we've got some gray hair (or no hair at all), doesn't mean we still don't know about paddling.[/quote]

Phil - Don't think that I dont know that you old heads have forgotten more than i may ever know. especially you sir.

Eddyhops - i'll try a 13ft slalom boat n get back to you. I usually refrain from paddling other boats than my 'all-water' boat....aka whatever boat I creek in. Everyday on the water is precious at this point in terms of continuing to progress...because the Green Gnarlz race is getting closer as every day goes by ;)[/quote]

you should do the UY in a slalom boat, it's the most fun you will ever have. there are rocks, and depending on flow it'll be interesting, but it makes you make the move...