Anchors
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:47 pm
Anchors
by Charlie
WOndering what people have used to set anchors for thigh straps. Rope and Epoxy? How about D-rings and glue...what type of glue? Thanks
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:00 AM
Charlie;
by Ric Taylor
I don't know what kind of boat you have and what the material is, so it's sort of hard to say. If It' s fiberglass you usually just lay up a piece of fiberglass tape over a piece of garden hose (covered with a piece of plastic from a grocery bag, so that you can pull the garden hose out from under the fiberglass once it has hardened into a loop). So for a one inch loop over a one inch garden hose, you have a three inch piece of fiberglass tape. Coat it in epoxy resin, put one inch flat on the hull, one inch up over the top of the garden hose, and one inch flat on the hull on the other side, let dry, and pull the garden hose out. Or you can buy that same sort of "Band-Aid loop" from Mad River canoes or NOC, or wherever. This loop is smaller, because it's made for a d-ring. It's made of some sort of vinyl, I think, and is very stiff to begin with. To shape the two flat sections of the loop so that they conform to the side of your hull, boil the loop in water until you can flex it, then take the pot of water with the loop still in it, and walk out to your boat and take the loop out of the water with a spoon or whatever. Then, wearing almost any kind of light glove so that you won't burn your fingers, press the loop quickly against the side of the hull and hold it there. You have to leave the loop in the water as long as possible because it will almost immediately start to harden. But if you hold it in place for a minute or two, it will then conform to the shape and curve of the hull wherever you want to put it. Then you just put the loop in with epoxy resin, because epoxy resin will mix well (pretty much) with any other type of resin, except vinylester, which is pretty rare in C-boats, I think.
If you're working with a polyethylene hull the only glue that I have found that even remotely seems to be strong enough is a fairly expensive two-part epoxy from 3M. I'm including part of a post that is somewhere in these archives but I'm neither computer nor Internet literate enough to tell you how to find it, so I'm just reposting a significant portion of it and I hope it will help. Good luck, and let me know there's anything else I can do,
Ric Taylor
So since I've been in the process of perverting this puppy for far too long, I also started looking for a glue that would work with polyethylene. And every kayak manufacturer that I called had no clue, and with the exception of Dagger, made no attempt to even consider looking for such an animal. So I spent all of about seven minutes on the net and found that 3M makes a glue specifically for polyethylene. It's called Scotch-Weld Structural Plastic Adhesive DP 8005 and far as my tests have shown it locks things on to linear polyethylene. Their test data indicates that you can leave this stuff underwater at 160 degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks and have 980 pounds per square inch tension at the end of it. And I humbly submit that if I'm underwater at 160 degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks, the last of my worries is going to be whether my D- rings are holding or not!
You'll need to call a 3M technician to see if it works for cross-link (I don't know what the Z is made of ), but I assume it would work the same. It seems to work on everything that you would need to bond into your boat (foam, metal, another piece of polyethylene), but you might try to stay away from flexible vinyl D-rings if you're going to use this. Because my seat slides forward and back, I have to put a large piece of flexible vinyl down to attach my knee straps to. This area is so new to 3M that nobody there had a clue. They knew it works well with solid vinyl, but Apparently the plasticizers that make the vinyl flexible have the possibility of eroding the glue. But I glued a test strip of plasticized vinyl onto linear polyethylene and hid it in the corner of a sauna for two weeks at 185 degrees and it seems to be doing fine so far. But it should work fine on the D-ring that you already have.
It's not the easiest stuff to work with (it needs and applicator gun and a special nozzle to mix the two parts in the proper ratio. I tried without the nozzle and it didn't hold at all.), but it does hold. The setup time is very quick (2-3 minutes), but they are coming out fairly soon with a DP 8010 which will have around a 10 minute setup time which should give you much more freedom.
You can also use another glue made specifically for polyethylene that works like contact cement for gluing all your foam in. It's called Scotch-Grip Plastic Adhesive 4693 . But be sure with both of these, because I don't think what you've glued in will come out easily, since they both bond so well. In fact, I had to pull some foam off of my cockpit because I was going to heat it and jack it up so that I could get under it easier, and I ended up leaving a very small section of foam on the boat. In other words, I pulled the foam off of the foam that remained attached to the glue, rather than the foam and glue off of the boat.
Anyway, I Hope this helps, be sure to check it out the thoroughly with their technicians, and feel free to ask any other questions.
Good luck,
Ric Taylor
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 12:27 AM
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glueing to polyethylene
by Daniel Holzman
I have tried at least three different types of glue to attach vinyl or ABS patches to cross linked polyethylene, including the 3M product, and a very expensive (special for polyethylene) glue from a company in Colorado. The short answer is that none of them has held up for more than a month or so.
I had a very unpleasant experience with a pair of D rings I used on my first Z-boat conversion. I glued the D rings down to the boat using 3M two part epoxy cement. It seemed to hold OK. About three weeks later, I was out paddling in cold water (this was spring time), and after portaging around an ice dam I noticed that my seat had come out (I used contact cement to hold the seat down to the hull). I figured this was no big deal, I would continue on.
About 1/4 mile further, the first thigh strap came loose. As I pulled into an eddy, the second thigh strap came out. I don't know if the cold weather killed it, or it was never any good, but I have never gotten any kind of glue to work effectively on cross linked polyethylene, even though I do all the things the manufacturer suggests (preheat the polyethylene with a torch, weight down the piece, don't distrub for two days etc.)
My recommendation is to be very suspect of any piece glued into a cross linked polyethylene hull. This may be true of straight chain (linear) polyethylene as well, I don't have any experience with that material. By the way, glueing to ABS or PVC works like a charm, these plastics have a very high surface energy level, and structural adhesives work beautifully, they are stronger than the native plastic.
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 9:13 AM
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Daniel.....
by Ric Taylor
this is not good news for me at all, since all the straps in my boat are anchored with that DP 8005. Did you try that specific glue? I only ask because it was specifically developed for polyethylene and at this point seems to be working fine for me, although I haven't used it a tremendous amount or for a significant length of time yet. But a couple of other friends have tried it and report excellent function up to this point. Also, as I mentioned, it does not work at all if it's not applied through that applicator and nozzle, it has to be mixed PRECISELY.
It was also a serious bitch getting the proper amount of weight (4-6 pounds psi ) onto the patches I laid down, and the first test patches that didn't have that proper amount of weight didn't work very well. Could that be the problem? Did you talk to any technicians at 3M? I'm hoping maybe it was the cold that did it, because since I live in Los Angeles I doubt that that will ever be an issue out here.
Anyway, thanks so much for the heads up, I will now proceed to get even more anal in my pre-paddle check;
Ric
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 9:55 AM
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Polyethylene glue
by Daniel Holzman
The most recent glue I tried was Nbond Pbond33, which is (supposedly) a special, two part, thermoset 1:1 ratio slow set glue which will work on polyethylene and polypropylene. It is definitely not the same as the 3M glue, I have never used that specific product. The Nbond cost about $25 for a small tube, and the results were unsatisfactory to say the least, so I have given up on polyethylene glues completely. However, if the 3M stuff is as good as you say, I might risk attaching a loop or two for a water bottle holder lol. Keep me posted, I am very curious, but not yet convinced I want to risk myself on a glue in solution.
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 12:38 PM
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by Charlie
WOndering what people have used to set anchors for thigh straps. Rope and Epoxy? How about D-rings and glue...what type of glue? Thanks
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:00 AM
Charlie;
by Ric Taylor
I don't know what kind of boat you have and what the material is, so it's sort of hard to say. If It' s fiberglass you usually just lay up a piece of fiberglass tape over a piece of garden hose (covered with a piece of plastic from a grocery bag, so that you can pull the garden hose out from under the fiberglass once it has hardened into a loop). So for a one inch loop over a one inch garden hose, you have a three inch piece of fiberglass tape. Coat it in epoxy resin, put one inch flat on the hull, one inch up over the top of the garden hose, and one inch flat on the hull on the other side, let dry, and pull the garden hose out. Or you can buy that same sort of "Band-Aid loop" from Mad River canoes or NOC, or wherever. This loop is smaller, because it's made for a d-ring. It's made of some sort of vinyl, I think, and is very stiff to begin with. To shape the two flat sections of the loop so that they conform to the side of your hull, boil the loop in water until you can flex it, then take the pot of water with the loop still in it, and walk out to your boat and take the loop out of the water with a spoon or whatever. Then, wearing almost any kind of light glove so that you won't burn your fingers, press the loop quickly against the side of the hull and hold it there. You have to leave the loop in the water as long as possible because it will almost immediately start to harden. But if you hold it in place for a minute or two, it will then conform to the shape and curve of the hull wherever you want to put it. Then you just put the loop in with epoxy resin, because epoxy resin will mix well (pretty much) with any other type of resin, except vinylester, which is pretty rare in C-boats, I think.
If you're working with a polyethylene hull the only glue that I have found that even remotely seems to be strong enough is a fairly expensive two-part epoxy from 3M. I'm including part of a post that is somewhere in these archives but I'm neither computer nor Internet literate enough to tell you how to find it, so I'm just reposting a significant portion of it and I hope it will help. Good luck, and let me know there's anything else I can do,
Ric Taylor
So since I've been in the process of perverting this puppy for far too long, I also started looking for a glue that would work with polyethylene. And every kayak manufacturer that I called had no clue, and with the exception of Dagger, made no attempt to even consider looking for such an animal. So I spent all of about seven minutes on the net and found that 3M makes a glue specifically for polyethylene. It's called Scotch-Weld Structural Plastic Adhesive DP 8005 and far as my tests have shown it locks things on to linear polyethylene. Their test data indicates that you can leave this stuff underwater at 160 degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks and have 980 pounds per square inch tension at the end of it. And I humbly submit that if I'm underwater at 160 degrees Fahrenheit for two weeks, the last of my worries is going to be whether my D- rings are holding or not!
You'll need to call a 3M technician to see if it works for cross-link (I don't know what the Z is made of ), but I assume it would work the same. It seems to work on everything that you would need to bond into your boat (foam, metal, another piece of polyethylene), but you might try to stay away from flexible vinyl D-rings if you're going to use this. Because my seat slides forward and back, I have to put a large piece of flexible vinyl down to attach my knee straps to. This area is so new to 3M that nobody there had a clue. They knew it works well with solid vinyl, but Apparently the plasticizers that make the vinyl flexible have the possibility of eroding the glue. But I glued a test strip of plasticized vinyl onto linear polyethylene and hid it in the corner of a sauna for two weeks at 185 degrees and it seems to be doing fine so far. But it should work fine on the D-ring that you already have.
It's not the easiest stuff to work with (it needs and applicator gun and a special nozzle to mix the two parts in the proper ratio. I tried without the nozzle and it didn't hold at all.), but it does hold. The setup time is very quick (2-3 minutes), but they are coming out fairly soon with a DP 8010 which will have around a 10 minute setup time which should give you much more freedom.
You can also use another glue made specifically for polyethylene that works like contact cement for gluing all your foam in. It's called Scotch-Grip Plastic Adhesive 4693 . But be sure with both of these, because I don't think what you've glued in will come out easily, since they both bond so well. In fact, I had to pull some foam off of my cockpit because I was going to heat it and jack it up so that I could get under it easier, and I ended up leaving a very small section of foam on the boat. In other words, I pulled the foam off of the foam that remained attached to the glue, rather than the foam and glue off of the boat.
Anyway, I Hope this helps, be sure to check it out the thoroughly with their technicians, and feel free to ask any other questions.
Good luck,
Ric Taylor
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 12:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
glueing to polyethylene
by Daniel Holzman
I have tried at least three different types of glue to attach vinyl or ABS patches to cross linked polyethylene, including the 3M product, and a very expensive (special for polyethylene) glue from a company in Colorado. The short answer is that none of them has held up for more than a month or so.
I had a very unpleasant experience with a pair of D rings I used on my first Z-boat conversion. I glued the D rings down to the boat using 3M two part epoxy cement. It seemed to hold OK. About three weeks later, I was out paddling in cold water (this was spring time), and after portaging around an ice dam I noticed that my seat had come out (I used contact cement to hold the seat down to the hull). I figured this was no big deal, I would continue on.
About 1/4 mile further, the first thigh strap came loose. As I pulled into an eddy, the second thigh strap came out. I don't know if the cold weather killed it, or it was never any good, but I have never gotten any kind of glue to work effectively on cross linked polyethylene, even though I do all the things the manufacturer suggests (preheat the polyethylene with a torch, weight down the piece, don't distrub for two days etc.)
My recommendation is to be very suspect of any piece glued into a cross linked polyethylene hull. This may be true of straight chain (linear) polyethylene as well, I don't have any experience with that material. By the way, glueing to ABS or PVC works like a charm, these plastics have a very high surface energy level, and structural adhesives work beautifully, they are stronger than the native plastic.
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 9:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel.....
by Ric Taylor
this is not good news for me at all, since all the straps in my boat are anchored with that DP 8005. Did you try that specific glue? I only ask because it was specifically developed for polyethylene and at this point seems to be working fine for me, although I haven't used it a tremendous amount or for a significant length of time yet. But a couple of other friends have tried it and report excellent function up to this point. Also, as I mentioned, it does not work at all if it's not applied through that applicator and nozzle, it has to be mixed PRECISELY.
It was also a serious bitch getting the proper amount of weight (4-6 pounds psi ) onto the patches I laid down, and the first test patches that didn't have that proper amount of weight didn't work very well. Could that be the problem? Did you talk to any technicians at 3M? I'm hoping maybe it was the cold that did it, because since I live in Los Angeles I doubt that that will ever be an issue out here.
Anyway, thanks so much for the heads up, I will now proceed to get even more anal in my pre-paddle check;
Ric
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 9:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polyethylene glue
by Daniel Holzman
The most recent glue I tried was Nbond Pbond33, which is (supposedly) a special, two part, thermoset 1:1 ratio slow set glue which will work on polyethylene and polypropylene. It is definitely not the same as the 3M glue, I have never used that specific product. The Nbond cost about $25 for a small tube, and the results were unsatisfactory to say the least, so I have given up on polyethylene glues completely. However, if the 3M stuff is as good as you say, I might risk attaching a loop or two for a water bottle holder lol. Keep me posted, I am very curious, but not yet convinced I want to risk myself on a glue in solution.
Posted on Jul 30, 2002, 12:38 PM
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