OK - a few more questions...
Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:47 pm
OK - a few more questions...
by trevor bradian
thanks for the input on the phantom, it was great! i'm going to see if they will let me demo it. i have a few more questions:
1) NOC is selling the esquif nitro & detonator for $811. given the weight & paddling criteria i mentioned when asking about the phantom - how would you rate these boats? are they a good deal, or should i look more closely at the phantom?
2) i have a wavesport Z that i'm interested in converting to a c1, but want the option of converting it back to a k1 without a major overhaul. is the dagger pedastal setup that they use in the atom & cascade a good way to go, or should i consider other options?
thanks again for the input on the phantom. i asked the same question on boater talk & got only one answer. yu guys are fantastic on response time. BTW - due to the drought in the southeast, most of the guys i used to paddle with have focused on other pursuits & its been a long time since i've had a chance to paddle. are there any single blade paddlers in central NC (triangle / triad area) that i could hook up with & get back into paddling with (assuming you don't mind a 48 year old fart hanging out with you)? please contact me if interested.
regards,
trevor
Posted on Jul 28, 2002, 6:34 PM
Esquif boats+outfitting
by maxwell
Hey. First question: The Esquif canoes are great boats! Good river running boats, but great surfers! Personally, I would buy a Detonator long before I bought a Phantom.
Outfitting question. If you can find a source for Minicell foam, that's a good way to go for outfitting your Z. Glue several pieces together and shape the block into your pedestal. Do the same to shape a bulkhead system for your knees to slide into. Use the existing holes from the kayak seat to anchor bolts for your lapbelt. No new holes, and if you need to change it back to a kayak, just pull the foam outfitting out, and drop the kayak seat back in. Good luck.
Maxwell
Posted on Jul 28, 2002, 9:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z conversion
by Rob W
I've converted a Z with a dagger c1 console but I drilled 2 new holes to anchor the console to the hull. A more ingenious person may be able to figure out a way to anchor it without drilling but I figured why ever convert it back? The Z is a great boat you'll have lots of fun with it.Others on this forum have used things like plastic downspouts from the front to back pillar as a center anchor point and this weekend I saw a riot glide with a solid plastic channel from front to back pillar that the guy said he got from a liquid logic boat? Apparently its part of the liquid logic k1 outfitting? Any one else know? Good luck. Enjoy!
Rob Weum
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 5:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newer boats...
by Scott B.
Some of the newer kayaks (Liquid Logic & Dagger in particular) come with a plastic beam the runs from the bow to stern wall, the kayak seat sits on top of this. It looks like it ought to make converting to C-1 a bit easier - yank out the evil seat, fashion a pedestal to straddle the beam, dill some holes in the beam for the lower thigh strap anchors (use the holes that secure the seat for your high anchors), and you're almost done.
I'm suffering in the same drought, but down in Columbia, SC. We've got some rivers that are in jeopardy of going dry...
Scott
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey youngster
by Ejner
Easy on the old fart call. I'm 53 and made the move from OC Quake to a Score C-1 last year and i'm loving it. Don't give it up yet, you have at least 5 years of paddlin in ya as i see it, which will give you a decent time to amortize the investment on an Esqife. Buy everything, paddle hard; save golf for your 80's. Ej in B.C.
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey fellow old fart!
by MarkT
Hey EJ...
I'm a 53 year old single blade old fart as well. I had to give up the C-1 after knee surgery last Feb. The short seats and strapping down the thighs finally got to me. Soooo I bought an Ocoee, put in a 10" seat and am having a grand time on the river. Would rather sit a little lower...but staying on da river is more important than seat height.
I figure on paddling till at least 65! hades with golf.
Enjoyed your post.
MarkT
Posted on Aug 9, 2002, 7:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy the Detonator
by Roger
I own a Detonator and my wife owns the Phantom. While the Phantom is a fun boat, I think the Detonator is a better design. Read the Rapid mag review in the Spring 2002 issue. It's pretty accurate.
All the design features like the narrowed gunwales, release chines, highly flared bow, really work. Primary stability between the Phantom and Detonator are about the same, but the Detonator has awesome secondary, while the Phantom's is marginal. (I'm 6'2" with lots of upper body weight, so I like stable boats.) The chines are forgiving, but they also carve reasonably well. They have a unique feel not found in other boats I've paddled. It's a fun boat for wave and hole surfing.
The Phantom is a little faster to accelerate and lighter for some reason. Esquif's Royalex seems stiffer and heavier.
A few warnings:
One of the planing surfaces on the bottom of the boat is slightly concave (oil canned), but I haven't noticed it while paddling. The release chines are a pain when installing knee pads. The sharp edges of the release chines will wear away quickly if you are creeking. I'm considering putting some strips of Kevlar or glass along the midsection to prolong the life of the Royalex. Has anyone tried this?
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 8:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detonator
by Dale
Roger I installed my knee pads right in the chines. I got rid of the bulkhead saddle. Cut it down to a regular saddle of about 9 inches in ht. installed Mike Yee outfitting. Now I can really control the boat and roll it much easier. The bulkhead was like a dam. When redesigning the saddle I fashioned it after Mike Yee's saddle it is still held under the thwart.
The Phantom is definately lighter and I thought much edgier. Detonator seem quite solid and fast for me at 5'6" being a woman.
Have not worn the chines out though as I have not done any creeking.
Definately like the narrowed gunwales, learning about the reaseing chines. Think it is a great little canoe.
Would definately recommend it.
Dale
Posted on Aug 1, 2002, 5:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the feedback
by Roger
Thanks Dale. I ended up putting the kneepads over the chines as well, by building up the foam on the inside of the pad. My main issue was that my saddle is about 6.5" high because I'm 6'2, 200 lbs and have a lot of my weight in my upper body (oh yeah, and my sense of balance sucks!). It really helps my stability to have a low saddle. So with raised kneepads, and a low saddle....not the most comfortable.
I ordered the Detonator with a bare hull and installed NorthWater outfitting. I've also installed foam panels in the sides. If you've got a roll, you'll probably really like this. You roll up with much less water, your legs get better contact with the boat if the foam is shaped properly, and the boat is more stable when it is full of water. Downsides are added weight, and emptying the boat is a little more difficult. If anyone wants more info on this I'll happily ramble on...
Roger
Posted on Aug 1, 2002, 9:46 AM
by trevor bradian
thanks for the input on the phantom, it was great! i'm going to see if they will let me demo it. i have a few more questions:
1) NOC is selling the esquif nitro & detonator for $811. given the weight & paddling criteria i mentioned when asking about the phantom - how would you rate these boats? are they a good deal, or should i look more closely at the phantom?
2) i have a wavesport Z that i'm interested in converting to a c1, but want the option of converting it back to a k1 without a major overhaul. is the dagger pedastal setup that they use in the atom & cascade a good way to go, or should i consider other options?
thanks again for the input on the phantom. i asked the same question on boater talk & got only one answer. yu guys are fantastic on response time. BTW - due to the drought in the southeast, most of the guys i used to paddle with have focused on other pursuits & its been a long time since i've had a chance to paddle. are there any single blade paddlers in central NC (triangle / triad area) that i could hook up with & get back into paddling with (assuming you don't mind a 48 year old fart hanging out with you)? please contact me if interested.
regards,
trevor
Posted on Jul 28, 2002, 6:34 PM
Esquif boats+outfitting
by maxwell
Hey. First question: The Esquif canoes are great boats! Good river running boats, but great surfers! Personally, I would buy a Detonator long before I bought a Phantom.
Outfitting question. If you can find a source for Minicell foam, that's a good way to go for outfitting your Z. Glue several pieces together and shape the block into your pedestal. Do the same to shape a bulkhead system for your knees to slide into. Use the existing holes from the kayak seat to anchor bolts for your lapbelt. No new holes, and if you need to change it back to a kayak, just pull the foam outfitting out, and drop the kayak seat back in. Good luck.
Maxwell
Posted on Jul 28, 2002, 9:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Z conversion
by Rob W
I've converted a Z with a dagger c1 console but I drilled 2 new holes to anchor the console to the hull. A more ingenious person may be able to figure out a way to anchor it without drilling but I figured why ever convert it back? The Z is a great boat you'll have lots of fun with it.Others on this forum have used things like plastic downspouts from the front to back pillar as a center anchor point and this weekend I saw a riot glide with a solid plastic channel from front to back pillar that the guy said he got from a liquid logic boat? Apparently its part of the liquid logic k1 outfitting? Any one else know? Good luck. Enjoy!
Rob Weum
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 5:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newer boats...
by Scott B.
Some of the newer kayaks (Liquid Logic & Dagger in particular) come with a plastic beam the runs from the bow to stern wall, the kayak seat sits on top of this. It looks like it ought to make converting to C-1 a bit easier - yank out the evil seat, fashion a pedestal to straddle the beam, dill some holes in the beam for the lower thigh strap anchors (use the holes that secure the seat for your high anchors), and you're almost done.
I'm suffering in the same drought, but down in Columbia, SC. We've got some rivers that are in jeopardy of going dry...
Scott
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey youngster
by Ejner
Easy on the old fart call. I'm 53 and made the move from OC Quake to a Score C-1 last year and i'm loving it. Don't give it up yet, you have at least 5 years of paddlin in ya as i see it, which will give you a decent time to amortize the investment on an Esqife. Buy everything, paddle hard; save golf for your 80's. Ej in B.C.
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 7:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey fellow old fart!
by MarkT
Hey EJ...
I'm a 53 year old single blade old fart as well. I had to give up the C-1 after knee surgery last Feb. The short seats and strapping down the thighs finally got to me. Soooo I bought an Ocoee, put in a 10" seat and am having a grand time on the river. Would rather sit a little lower...but staying on da river is more important than seat height.
I figure on paddling till at least 65! hades with golf.
Enjoyed your post.
MarkT
Posted on Aug 9, 2002, 7:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buy the Detonator
by Roger
I own a Detonator and my wife owns the Phantom. While the Phantom is a fun boat, I think the Detonator is a better design. Read the Rapid mag review in the Spring 2002 issue. It's pretty accurate.
All the design features like the narrowed gunwales, release chines, highly flared bow, really work. Primary stability between the Phantom and Detonator are about the same, but the Detonator has awesome secondary, while the Phantom's is marginal. (I'm 6'2" with lots of upper body weight, so I like stable boats.) The chines are forgiving, but they also carve reasonably well. They have a unique feel not found in other boats I've paddled. It's a fun boat for wave and hole surfing.
The Phantom is a little faster to accelerate and lighter for some reason. Esquif's Royalex seems stiffer and heavier.
A few warnings:
One of the planing surfaces on the bottom of the boat is slightly concave (oil canned), but I haven't noticed it while paddling. The release chines are a pain when installing knee pads. The sharp edges of the release chines will wear away quickly if you are creeking. I'm considering putting some strips of Kevlar or glass along the midsection to prolong the life of the Royalex. Has anyone tried this?
Posted on Jul 29, 2002, 8:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detonator
by Dale
Roger I installed my knee pads right in the chines. I got rid of the bulkhead saddle. Cut it down to a regular saddle of about 9 inches in ht. installed Mike Yee outfitting. Now I can really control the boat and roll it much easier. The bulkhead was like a dam. When redesigning the saddle I fashioned it after Mike Yee's saddle it is still held under the thwart.
The Phantom is definately lighter and I thought much edgier. Detonator seem quite solid and fast for me at 5'6" being a woman.
Have not worn the chines out though as I have not done any creeking.
Definately like the narrowed gunwales, learning about the reaseing chines. Think it is a great little canoe.
Would definately recommend it.
Dale
Posted on Aug 1, 2002, 5:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the feedback
by Roger
Thanks Dale. I ended up putting the kneepads over the chines as well, by building up the foam on the inside of the pad. My main issue was that my saddle is about 6.5" high because I'm 6'2, 200 lbs and have a lot of my weight in my upper body (oh yeah, and my sense of balance sucks!). It really helps my stability to have a low saddle. So with raised kneepads, and a low saddle....not the most comfortable.
I ordered the Detonator with a bare hull and installed NorthWater outfitting. I've also installed foam panels in the sides. If you've got a roll, you'll probably really like this. You roll up with much less water, your legs get better contact with the boat if the foam is shaped properly, and the boat is more stable when it is full of water. Downsides are added weight, and emptying the boat is a little more difficult. If anyone wants more info on this I'll happily ramble on...
Roger
Posted on Aug 1, 2002, 9:46 AM