C1 shaft length vs OC1 shaft length? Also ergonomic (DT) sha
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:50 pm
C1 shaft length vs OC1 shaft length? Also ergonomic (DT) shaft length?
by Mangobait Mangobait
Two questions:
1) I know the old tradition of measuring a paddle shaft based on torso length; I also know that it doesn't entirely make sense to me if you are paddling with good "modern" form (keeping your box, paddling with your torso etc) because, if we can assume your arm to be long enough to get to the top of your thigh, that part of it all should be taken care of. Aren't we really talking about how big that box is? (I could see trunk length being more important if you are doing longer "classic" strokes where you are using the length of the boat more.)
If we are talking about the box size, aren't we talking about shoulder span and shouldn't we be measuring our paddles more like kayakers? Make a box and grab your ideal shaft length?
I am still doing my conversion and maybe this will be answered once I get on the water with it--and I do know that a lot of C1 paddlers seem to paddle with shorter shafts. The question is why? If it is distance to water, do we subtract the difference in saddle height from an OC1? But then we'd start to have to figure in boeyency too. If you are in a low sitting tandem, this logic would dictate that you would also use a shorter shaft than in a high floating playboat. I don't know anybody who makes this distinction.
2) I just picked up a Galasport paddle with a double torque ergonomic shaft. Because the double torque area forces me to grab the shaft higher up than I normally would I am wondering if people use longer DT shafts than they use when paddling straight shafts. And I mean, quite a bit longer: the DT area means the lowest you can grip your shaft is about six inches above where the shaft joins the blade compared with maybe about two inches on a normal shaft oval grip.
Normally I paddle a 57" paddle. Based on the feel, and my just presented math, a 61" paddle is what I am aiming at. But then I don't usually choke my shaft up to the last 2 inches, whereas the DT shaft feels really good just before the bending gets underway. (Being a Galasport I have to cut the shaft to my desired length and epoxy the dowel.)
Posted on Aug 21, 2002, 11:11 PM
Hyperextension of the shoulder.
by Mangobait Mangobait
A friend I was talking to yesterday (experienced C1er) said he just grabbed a handful of Mohawks of all different lengths and went to a lake. He just chose by feel. Without the gunwales to get over you CAN have a shorter paddle he said.
A big concern for him was hyperextension of the offside shoulder, just because the shoulder is in a much more exposed position than in an openboat.
So maybe the factors are too complicated to work out with any rule of thumb. This brings me more to the "feel" camp but also reaffirms my suspicion that the old torso measurement means is more a lucky average (crock) than something that means much on its own.
(He didn't have anything to say about DTs though.)
Posted on Aug 23, 2002, 9:04 AM
I'm curious about bent shafts too.
by Jon
I've no idea but I'd expect you measure them the same as for a normal paddle. If anybody emails you, please post something for the rest of us. Maybe bent shafts are more of a k-boat thing?
Posted on Aug 25, 2002, 10:52 PM
Bent Shafts, length
by Scott B.
I don't have much experience with them just yet, because I just received my first one from Climax Paddles (Maxwell Johnston). I ordered one after trying one out this spring and finding it very comfortable. When ordering it, Maxwell talked me into shaving about 2" off of my normal paddle length. I've had mine out twice and find that I do not miss the length at all, and with the change in wrist angle, I have as much reach as before and my top arm is more level (probably good for the shoulder). I think the same factors are at work when making cross strokes - reach is improved and my t-grip is not as far up in the air.
Probably unrelated to the bends, I feel like my stroke rate has increased (no scientific comparisons yet). I'm thinking the end of the paddle is not travelling as long an arc as a longer paddle would, maybe the equivalent of a lower gear? It's also easier to recover with on-side strokes and get over the deck for the off-side ones.
As for sizing it, Maxwell asked for the distance between my t-grip hand and the knuckle of my middle finger of my shaft hand. I arrived at that by measuring against my existing paddles and by figuring where it "ought" to be (turned out to be a little less)-
1. held both arms out to my sides with elbows at right angles (the paddling "box")
2. held my t-grip hand at about forehead level and my shaft hand down with my elbow at about a right angle
These were withing an inch or so of each other (28-29"). That dimension located the bend. The overall length (56") was what he talked me down to (from my normal 58").
I'm liking it a lot -
Scott
Posted on Aug 26, 2002, 4:15 AM
Ergonomic paddle shafts and lenght
by Brian
This is a subject that will gain much importance in the years to come with the increased use of erogonomic shafts by paddlers.
1. I think many C1ers use shorter paddle lengths than OC1. Also, some OC1 use longer paddle lengths than traditional tandem. The reason is the distance to the water. C1 being the closest to the water, followed by tandem, and lastly OC1 having the greatest saddle height.
2. Double torque ergonomic shafts! What is the world coming to? These are smartly designed!! They offer a slightly better reach and therefore some paddlers might use a slightly short paddle length. They should be comfortable since they offer a fine natural position.
3. Shaft hand is often choked up when paddling white water especially true with OC1 due to the gunwales. Many OC1 boaters hold the shaft above the gunwales. They use the same paddle length and just choke up with the shaft hand. This also helps with paddle reach, braces, rolls, off-side and cross strokes.
4. Does climax paddles have a web site?
I look forward to reading and hearing more about new paddle designs and trying them out!
Brian
Posted on Aug 26, 2002, 5:56 PM
Thank guys! I was giving up hope on getting feedback.
by Mangobait
Still have to get up the nerve to cut my shaft to length.
Posted on Aug 27, 2002, 12:22 AM
don't cut yet!!
by Adam Boyd Adam Boyd
I also use Gala blades for racing. If you are unsure about the length this isn't a huge problem. I happen to know that I paddle with a 58 1/4" paddle, but if you don't know what length you want right now cut the paddle at the long end of the spectrum. Then put the paddle together using 5 min epoxy from the hardware store (some tips for that, sand the tip of the shaft for the epoxy to grip, you may have to sand out the inside of the T grip to make it fit all the way down, the T grip adds 1/2" to the paddle length so cut the shaft accordingly., plug the shaft with some grey foam; I get a small piece of foam and punch out a hole using the shaft, this keeps the epoxy from draining down into the shaft and also water from leaking into the shaft, also if you plan to use the paddle a while highly consider treating the T grip with something, I have started just painting left over resin on it but anything to keep it from rotting/cracking over a long period).
Now, if you find that the paddle is too long you aren't in trouble. Simply boil some water and put your T grip in it. This will break down the epoxy so you can pull the T grip off. Beware, this is why you can't use quality epoxy like west systems, just 5 min or something close to it. If you hold the shaft in too long in might begin to make the shaft soft but this isn't a huge deal. Good luck, and I hope I wasn't too late.
Adam Boyd
Posted on Aug 29, 2002, 7:57 AM
No, not too late, thanks. What are your guidelines?
by mangobait
Still, what guidelines do you suggest vs your straight shaft length?
Posted on Aug 29, 2002, 12:25 PM
by Mangobait Mangobait
Two questions:
1) I know the old tradition of measuring a paddle shaft based on torso length; I also know that it doesn't entirely make sense to me if you are paddling with good "modern" form (keeping your box, paddling with your torso etc) because, if we can assume your arm to be long enough to get to the top of your thigh, that part of it all should be taken care of. Aren't we really talking about how big that box is? (I could see trunk length being more important if you are doing longer "classic" strokes where you are using the length of the boat more.)
If we are talking about the box size, aren't we talking about shoulder span and shouldn't we be measuring our paddles more like kayakers? Make a box and grab your ideal shaft length?
I am still doing my conversion and maybe this will be answered once I get on the water with it--and I do know that a lot of C1 paddlers seem to paddle with shorter shafts. The question is why? If it is distance to water, do we subtract the difference in saddle height from an OC1? But then we'd start to have to figure in boeyency too. If you are in a low sitting tandem, this logic would dictate that you would also use a shorter shaft than in a high floating playboat. I don't know anybody who makes this distinction.
2) I just picked up a Galasport paddle with a double torque ergonomic shaft. Because the double torque area forces me to grab the shaft higher up than I normally would I am wondering if people use longer DT shafts than they use when paddling straight shafts. And I mean, quite a bit longer: the DT area means the lowest you can grip your shaft is about six inches above where the shaft joins the blade compared with maybe about two inches on a normal shaft oval grip.
Normally I paddle a 57" paddle. Based on the feel, and my just presented math, a 61" paddle is what I am aiming at. But then I don't usually choke my shaft up to the last 2 inches, whereas the DT shaft feels really good just before the bending gets underway. (Being a Galasport I have to cut the shaft to my desired length and epoxy the dowel.)
Posted on Aug 21, 2002, 11:11 PM
Hyperextension of the shoulder.
by Mangobait Mangobait
A friend I was talking to yesterday (experienced C1er) said he just grabbed a handful of Mohawks of all different lengths and went to a lake. He just chose by feel. Without the gunwales to get over you CAN have a shorter paddle he said.
A big concern for him was hyperextension of the offside shoulder, just because the shoulder is in a much more exposed position than in an openboat.
So maybe the factors are too complicated to work out with any rule of thumb. This brings me more to the "feel" camp but also reaffirms my suspicion that the old torso measurement means is more a lucky average (crock) than something that means much on its own.
(He didn't have anything to say about DTs though.)
Posted on Aug 23, 2002, 9:04 AM
I'm curious about bent shafts too.
by Jon
I've no idea but I'd expect you measure them the same as for a normal paddle. If anybody emails you, please post something for the rest of us. Maybe bent shafts are more of a k-boat thing?
Posted on Aug 25, 2002, 10:52 PM
Bent Shafts, length
by Scott B.
I don't have much experience with them just yet, because I just received my first one from Climax Paddles (Maxwell Johnston). I ordered one after trying one out this spring and finding it very comfortable. When ordering it, Maxwell talked me into shaving about 2" off of my normal paddle length. I've had mine out twice and find that I do not miss the length at all, and with the change in wrist angle, I have as much reach as before and my top arm is more level (probably good for the shoulder). I think the same factors are at work when making cross strokes - reach is improved and my t-grip is not as far up in the air.
Probably unrelated to the bends, I feel like my stroke rate has increased (no scientific comparisons yet). I'm thinking the end of the paddle is not travelling as long an arc as a longer paddle would, maybe the equivalent of a lower gear? It's also easier to recover with on-side strokes and get over the deck for the off-side ones.
As for sizing it, Maxwell asked for the distance between my t-grip hand and the knuckle of my middle finger of my shaft hand. I arrived at that by measuring against my existing paddles and by figuring where it "ought" to be (turned out to be a little less)-
1. held both arms out to my sides with elbows at right angles (the paddling "box")
2. held my t-grip hand at about forehead level and my shaft hand down with my elbow at about a right angle
These were withing an inch or so of each other (28-29"). That dimension located the bend. The overall length (56") was what he talked me down to (from my normal 58").
I'm liking it a lot -
Scott
Posted on Aug 26, 2002, 4:15 AM
Ergonomic paddle shafts and lenght
by Brian
This is a subject that will gain much importance in the years to come with the increased use of erogonomic shafts by paddlers.
1. I think many C1ers use shorter paddle lengths than OC1. Also, some OC1 use longer paddle lengths than traditional tandem. The reason is the distance to the water. C1 being the closest to the water, followed by tandem, and lastly OC1 having the greatest saddle height.
2. Double torque ergonomic shafts! What is the world coming to? These are smartly designed!! They offer a slightly better reach and therefore some paddlers might use a slightly short paddle length. They should be comfortable since they offer a fine natural position.
3. Shaft hand is often choked up when paddling white water especially true with OC1 due to the gunwales. Many OC1 boaters hold the shaft above the gunwales. They use the same paddle length and just choke up with the shaft hand. This also helps with paddle reach, braces, rolls, off-side and cross strokes.
4. Does climax paddles have a web site?
I look forward to reading and hearing more about new paddle designs and trying them out!
Brian
Posted on Aug 26, 2002, 5:56 PM
Thank guys! I was giving up hope on getting feedback.
by Mangobait
Still have to get up the nerve to cut my shaft to length.
Posted on Aug 27, 2002, 12:22 AM
don't cut yet!!
by Adam Boyd Adam Boyd
I also use Gala blades for racing. If you are unsure about the length this isn't a huge problem. I happen to know that I paddle with a 58 1/4" paddle, but if you don't know what length you want right now cut the paddle at the long end of the spectrum. Then put the paddle together using 5 min epoxy from the hardware store (some tips for that, sand the tip of the shaft for the epoxy to grip, you may have to sand out the inside of the T grip to make it fit all the way down, the T grip adds 1/2" to the paddle length so cut the shaft accordingly., plug the shaft with some grey foam; I get a small piece of foam and punch out a hole using the shaft, this keeps the epoxy from draining down into the shaft and also water from leaking into the shaft, also if you plan to use the paddle a while highly consider treating the T grip with something, I have started just painting left over resin on it but anything to keep it from rotting/cracking over a long period).
Now, if you find that the paddle is too long you aren't in trouble. Simply boil some water and put your T grip in it. This will break down the epoxy so you can pull the T grip off. Beware, this is why you can't use quality epoxy like west systems, just 5 min or something close to it. If you hold the shaft in too long in might begin to make the shaft soft but this isn't a huge deal. Good luck, and I hope I wasn't too late.
Adam Boyd
Posted on Aug 29, 2002, 7:57 AM
No, not too late, thanks. What are your guidelines?
by mangobait
Still, what guidelines do you suggest vs your straight shaft length?
Posted on Aug 29, 2002, 12:25 PM