opinions wanted
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:20 pm
opinions wanted
by Adam
I'm a beginner wanting to get an open canoe. I've been looking at the Dagger Ovation and Rival, as well as the Viper by Mohawk. Any opinions as to the characteristics of these boats and their strong/weak points would be appreciated.
Thanks
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 2:52 PM
OC-1
by Bryant
I personally would go with the Esquif Detonater (the one under 10"long). Very stable, dry but quick and playful. Second choice is Phantom - not as stable but quick and dry. In a longer boat - Rival or Outrage are both good. You will learn to paddle and grown into the small boats very quickly.
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 5:02 PM
Outrage?
by Adam
Thanks for the help. I haven't heard of the Outrage though. Who makes it?
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 7:24 PM
Outrage
by Dave
Adam,
Dagger MADE the Outrage.
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 8:52 PM
MR
by Scott
Mad River, not Dagger. And they still make it :
http://www.madrivercanoe.com/whitewater.shtml#outrage
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:09 PM
Re: MR
by Dave
Yes you are correct. I was thinking of the Ovation. Sorry for the mis-leading information I typed what I was thinking and not what I ment to.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 11:58 AM
OC1
by Craig
the Mad River Outrage and Dagger Rival (discontinued) both make excellent beginner boats you shouldn't grow out of too quickly. Some boaters prefer a harder chine as they gain skills and the Dagger Ocoee, Pyranha Prelude and others fit that bill later. Happy Holidays! Craig
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:14 PM
Open boat opinions
by Randy
I would say paddle anything, as much as you can, as a primary goal. The main goal is time on the water
Used boats are cool, you can buy and sell them, moving on with minimal financial hardship, as you discover what you like.
Having said that, here's my two cents on a few models:
I started in a Rival. I know many people think highly of the Rival, but I never fell in love with the boat. It seems to me that the design gives nothing in return for its shortcomings. All boats are a compromise, but to me, the Rival did not give enough primary or secondary stability in return for its overall size. I have paddled the Outrage for only an hour or so, but I feel that it is a much better example of a full-sized solo canoe. It is big, and in return it is fast and stable.
The Detonator by Esquif may seem a poor choice for a beginner's boat to some, but if you have a chance to paddle one before buying, check it out. I really like the Detonator - it's manuerverable and quick, and has plenty of secondary stability.
My bias is definitely in favor of shorter boats, so take that into consideration. However, the Phantom (also a short boat,) seems to me to lack any real stability, and I can never power this design up the way I can an Outrage or a Detonator.
So, here's my bottom line: 1) Find a bargain boat and paddle the gunnels off it. 2) If you want a larger solo boat, look for an Outrage. 3) If you are leaning towards the playboat end of the spectrum, try a Detonator before paying retail for something else.
Randy
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:42 PM
Where are you located
by Bryant
I have a used Outrage. I also paddled a Viper 12 for several years. The MR Outrage is a much better choice IMO. If buying new is no problem - the Detonator is a top choice. The Detonator can be demoed at the NOC (Nantihala) near Bryson City, NC. They also have Outrages and Preludes I believe.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 5:35 AM
Ovation! (kinda long)
by Kevin
In April, I was steered towards an Ovation for my starter boat by some folks on this forum. I had done 15 or so trips on class II/III in a tandem canoe in the last 4 years, then I got a cheap Perception Slasher, learned how to roll it (a lot!) and did about 6 or 8 trips in it on class II/III last year. I got the Ovation in early May of this year, and it took me from the Nantahala to the Upper Gauley in my first season of OC-1.
There is no "perfect boat", but for me there was a perfect boat for my first season of open boating, and it was the Ovation, w/ Mike Yee outfitting. It has great initial stability, no edge to speak of, and lots of rocker. The length seemed to provide a good compromise btwn the speed of the longer boats (Rival, Outrage, etc.) and manuverability of a Phantom or Ocoee.
Here's how I decided:
Rival- the sharp(er) entry lines that help make it fast make for a wetter ride than the Ovation, tracks well but length and relative lack of rocker make it harder to turn for moderate technical creeky stuff. Not real edgy, but kinda.
Outrage- drier than Rival? and more rocker, but same problem with length AND poor initial stability (for an old school longer boat). I almost got one.
Ocoee- could barely stay upright on flat water! Not a begginer boat. (picture driver's training in a race car- it's gunna get ugly)
Phantom- paddled one, didn't like it. More stable than Ocoee but seemed tubby and SLOW.
Ovation- Dry. Super stable. No edges to catch. Surfs like a dream. Easy to roll. Small enough to paddle full of water if you've got it bagged to the max. Slowish, but 11' length keeps it from being a total dog.
Prelude- looks promising, good luck demo-ing one unless your knees and thighs happen to fit the factory bulkhead. Probably not a great begginer boat anyway.
Esquif: Blast, Detonator, and new Zoom?- I will probably get a Detonator or Zoom for my next boat. I guess I'm ready for something with a little more edge to work with, and a little less length for creekin'.
IMHO the Blast or Detonator look like they might make reasonable 1st OC-1's for you if you have some previous experience on WW or are willing to take a little punishment initially. You will probably need to wait a year or two before you can find one used.
Depending on where you live, I think you should buy my Ovation with Mike Yee outfitting. Paddle it for a season, and then if you've outgrown it, maybee you can buy my Detonator so I can get a Spanish Fly...
This is all just my 2 cents- after all, what do I know- I've only really been boating for a year. Hopefully my remarks will prompt someone to refute what I've said, and then you'll have some more info to base your decision on:)
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 10:52 AM
Thanks
by Adam
Thanks everyone for all the help. I'm getting a better idea of what to look for and which boats are better for me.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 5:58 PM
OC1 opinions
by Ol' Geezer
Sounds like you're gettin some great advice. Just thought I'd add the "Sequel" to confuse you more. It's made by Blue Hole in Gordonsville Va. 11 ft long, the chines are not hard, but it spins on a dime, and is easy to roll. I find it to be very stable. It wasn't my first choice,I was really looking for an Ocoee, but it was a deal I couldn't refuse. Used is good. I like the guys advice about whatever you get, paddle the heck out of it.
Happy paddlin, Jim.
Posted on Dec 24, 2002, 6:28 AM
Detonator
by NZMatt
Gudday Adam. I was in a very similar position about 18months ago. I was really wanting to pick up my first OC1. I'd been paddling an XL13 for a bit but found it just too much boat for me (5'10 and 150lbs). I was used to paddling short kayaks (Bliss Stick Blitz) and was looking for something that would respond atleast somewhat similar to what I was used to, so I went short. I tried out the Phantom and the Detonator. I also had access to a Mad River Outrage (or is it the larger Outrage X? I alwasy forget) and Flashback and paddle those a little. I really like the maneuverability of the shorter boats - it was far closer to what I was used to in my kayaks, so I went short. At the time I really didn't know much at all and I liked both the Phantom and the Detonator. I ended up going with the Detonator as I met the factory crew at a couple of events and really liked them - and they sold me a demo .
The Detonator has been a great boat for me: it boofs great, resurfaces quickly after a drop/hole and is just a really great boat for what I've been doing. The secondary stability is rock solid and it'll really teach you to hold a solid J-lean as it's comfortable there. That stability has also saved my butt more than once I got my combat roll in the boat this fall and that opens up a whole new playing field. I can't compare it for dryness rolling with other boats since I haven't rolled many, but it seems pretty dry when running things (even more so if you could find one of those nifty battery powered bilge pumps they're now making).
I'm a fairly aggressive paddler and have progressed to paddling some class IV creeky stuff (Taylorville section of the Beaver) and recently ran the Lower Moose at just over 5'. I'm somewhat intimidated by big water still (e.g. the Ottawa and think a longer boat might be useful for those situations). The only drawbacks I find on the Detonator is the tracking is hard given the short length and flat bottom, as is ferrying. It is fairly slow, but that hasn't been too much of a problem to me - except on flatwater trying to keep up with my kayaking friends. Also, if you are trying to learn to carve turns, there's no edge to carve on: the wonderful double chine which creates all the secondary stability just will not seem to carve for me (I was trying to figure out outside-lean carving turns for eddying out, but it just slides sideways - of course that could be my technique).
Right now, I'm hoping to demo some hard chined boats and see what I think before deciding where I want to go from here. The list includes: Prelude, Ocoee and the new Esquif Zoom.
Wow - that's a long story In summary, the Detonator is a great first boat if you want a nimble, quick turning boat. If you mainly paddle big water, I would probably go slightly bigger (the Nitro or Rival maybe?) but for tight and technical, the Detonator rocks. You won't be able to do everything in it, but it'll definitely help you learn and build your paddling.
Matt
Posted on Dec 24, 2002, 7:09 AM
Early rolling
by Ejner
There are lots of boats out there and they all have individual qualities, good for some things bad for others but if you want to progress you gonna want a bomb proof roll and I think a roll is learned best early, in grade 2 practice. Thats how the kayakers approach paddling, learn to roll early in the sport and take off like a rocket from that base.(I have a problem roll, usually there occasionaly not)
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 1:33 PM
Early rolling boats
by Ejner
There are lots of boats out there and they all have individual qualities, good for some things, bad at others but if you want to progress you gonna need a bomb proof roll and not all boats are good rollers. I think a roll is learned best early, in grade 2 practice pools. Thats how the kayakers approach paddling, learn to roll early in the sport and take off like a rocket from that base with confidence.(I have a problem roll, usually there, occasionaly not)
That said, a great surfing, shredding, ferrying, spinning boat may not be the best rolling device. What ever you buy for your topsides-up-play check out your friends boats for roll practice machines or even buy a second hand one just for that purpose and put the skill down on your resume early. Its worth it. I started out in an Impulse and could never roll it, as a beginner. A friend loaned me his Genisis ? and I rolled it first try and couldn't stop. I have owned a Quake and that was the best roller ever for me and there are others. I was out for the first time in my new Detonator this morning and on the first dump I had to give it three trys to get past the sharp chine. I now know that problem is there and I now allow for it but if I was starting out a Detonator might be a real frustrator for a beginer to roll.
Anyways this has been the long way home but if you are into "it" you will go through a dozen second hand boats learning something from each one. Good luck and welcome.
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 2:07 PM
OC1 some thoughts
by Dale
I own a Mad River Outrage and an Esquif Detonator.
Paddled the Outrage for about 5 years. This is a great boat. Quick turning, dry, great on big and little water. Great boat to grow into. It does not compare to the Dagger Rival - the Rival is slow to turn and not as playful.
The Esquif Detonator is stable, quick, nible as they say, not as edgy as the Ocoee but there is an edge but a great little boat.
I would recommend the Outrage - at 12 feet. - some people really like the Outrage X which is 13 feet I believe.
Now if you really want to check out a new boat - Bell Canoe works is coming out with a ww canoe co-designed by David Yost (of Bell) and Bob Foote (who designed the Rival and Phantom no longer made by Dagger) I believe it is called the Prodigy - around 11ft 6inches. Should be out at Paddlesport show in New Jersey in March 2003. Bell makes a very beautiful boat.
As for the Ovation - I know Dagger thinks it is a bigger seller but I am not sure why - The Ocoee is a more challenging really grow into boat. But if you are considering the Ocoee go for the Esquif Detonator you will find it much more stable.
Hope that helps.
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 2:09 PM
by Adam
I'm a beginner wanting to get an open canoe. I've been looking at the Dagger Ovation and Rival, as well as the Viper by Mohawk. Any opinions as to the characteristics of these boats and their strong/weak points would be appreciated.
Thanks
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 2:52 PM
OC-1
by Bryant
I personally would go with the Esquif Detonater (the one under 10"long). Very stable, dry but quick and playful. Second choice is Phantom - not as stable but quick and dry. In a longer boat - Rival or Outrage are both good. You will learn to paddle and grown into the small boats very quickly.
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 5:02 PM
Outrage?
by Adam
Thanks for the help. I haven't heard of the Outrage though. Who makes it?
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 7:24 PM
Outrage
by Dave
Adam,
Dagger MADE the Outrage.
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 8:52 PM
MR
by Scott
Mad River, not Dagger. And they still make it :
http://www.madrivercanoe.com/whitewater.shtml#outrage
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:09 PM
Re: MR
by Dave
Yes you are correct. I was thinking of the Ovation. Sorry for the mis-leading information I typed what I was thinking and not what I ment to.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 11:58 AM
OC1
by Craig
the Mad River Outrage and Dagger Rival (discontinued) both make excellent beginner boats you shouldn't grow out of too quickly. Some boaters prefer a harder chine as they gain skills and the Dagger Ocoee, Pyranha Prelude and others fit that bill later. Happy Holidays! Craig
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:14 PM
Open boat opinions
by Randy
I would say paddle anything, as much as you can, as a primary goal. The main goal is time on the water
Used boats are cool, you can buy and sell them, moving on with minimal financial hardship, as you discover what you like.
Having said that, here's my two cents on a few models:
I started in a Rival. I know many people think highly of the Rival, but I never fell in love with the boat. It seems to me that the design gives nothing in return for its shortcomings. All boats are a compromise, but to me, the Rival did not give enough primary or secondary stability in return for its overall size. I have paddled the Outrage for only an hour or so, but I feel that it is a much better example of a full-sized solo canoe. It is big, and in return it is fast and stable.
The Detonator by Esquif may seem a poor choice for a beginner's boat to some, but if you have a chance to paddle one before buying, check it out. I really like the Detonator - it's manuerverable and quick, and has plenty of secondary stability.
My bias is definitely in favor of shorter boats, so take that into consideration. However, the Phantom (also a short boat,) seems to me to lack any real stability, and I can never power this design up the way I can an Outrage or a Detonator.
So, here's my bottom line: 1) Find a bargain boat and paddle the gunnels off it. 2) If you want a larger solo boat, look for an Outrage. 3) If you are leaning towards the playboat end of the spectrum, try a Detonator before paying retail for something else.
Randy
Posted on Dec 22, 2002, 9:42 PM
Where are you located
by Bryant
I have a used Outrage. I also paddled a Viper 12 for several years. The MR Outrage is a much better choice IMO. If buying new is no problem - the Detonator is a top choice. The Detonator can be demoed at the NOC (Nantihala) near Bryson City, NC. They also have Outrages and Preludes I believe.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 5:35 AM
Ovation! (kinda long)
by Kevin
In April, I was steered towards an Ovation for my starter boat by some folks on this forum. I had done 15 or so trips on class II/III in a tandem canoe in the last 4 years, then I got a cheap Perception Slasher, learned how to roll it (a lot!) and did about 6 or 8 trips in it on class II/III last year. I got the Ovation in early May of this year, and it took me from the Nantahala to the Upper Gauley in my first season of OC-1.
There is no "perfect boat", but for me there was a perfect boat for my first season of open boating, and it was the Ovation, w/ Mike Yee outfitting. It has great initial stability, no edge to speak of, and lots of rocker. The length seemed to provide a good compromise btwn the speed of the longer boats (Rival, Outrage, etc.) and manuverability of a Phantom or Ocoee.
Here's how I decided:
Rival- the sharp(er) entry lines that help make it fast make for a wetter ride than the Ovation, tracks well but length and relative lack of rocker make it harder to turn for moderate technical creeky stuff. Not real edgy, but kinda.
Outrage- drier than Rival? and more rocker, but same problem with length AND poor initial stability (for an old school longer boat). I almost got one.
Ocoee- could barely stay upright on flat water! Not a begginer boat. (picture driver's training in a race car- it's gunna get ugly)
Phantom- paddled one, didn't like it. More stable than Ocoee but seemed tubby and SLOW.
Ovation- Dry. Super stable. No edges to catch. Surfs like a dream. Easy to roll. Small enough to paddle full of water if you've got it bagged to the max. Slowish, but 11' length keeps it from being a total dog.
Prelude- looks promising, good luck demo-ing one unless your knees and thighs happen to fit the factory bulkhead. Probably not a great begginer boat anyway.
Esquif: Blast, Detonator, and new Zoom?- I will probably get a Detonator or Zoom for my next boat. I guess I'm ready for something with a little more edge to work with, and a little less length for creekin'.
IMHO the Blast or Detonator look like they might make reasonable 1st OC-1's for you if you have some previous experience on WW or are willing to take a little punishment initially. You will probably need to wait a year or two before you can find one used.
Depending on where you live, I think you should buy my Ovation with Mike Yee outfitting. Paddle it for a season, and then if you've outgrown it, maybee you can buy my Detonator so I can get a Spanish Fly...
This is all just my 2 cents- after all, what do I know- I've only really been boating for a year. Hopefully my remarks will prompt someone to refute what I've said, and then you'll have some more info to base your decision on:)
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 10:52 AM
Thanks
by Adam
Thanks everyone for all the help. I'm getting a better idea of what to look for and which boats are better for me.
Posted on Dec 23, 2002, 5:58 PM
OC1 opinions
by Ol' Geezer
Sounds like you're gettin some great advice. Just thought I'd add the "Sequel" to confuse you more. It's made by Blue Hole in Gordonsville Va. 11 ft long, the chines are not hard, but it spins on a dime, and is easy to roll. I find it to be very stable. It wasn't my first choice,I was really looking for an Ocoee, but it was a deal I couldn't refuse. Used is good. I like the guys advice about whatever you get, paddle the heck out of it.
Happy paddlin, Jim.
Posted on Dec 24, 2002, 6:28 AM
Detonator
by NZMatt
Gudday Adam. I was in a very similar position about 18months ago. I was really wanting to pick up my first OC1. I'd been paddling an XL13 for a bit but found it just too much boat for me (5'10 and 150lbs). I was used to paddling short kayaks (Bliss Stick Blitz) and was looking for something that would respond atleast somewhat similar to what I was used to, so I went short. I tried out the Phantom and the Detonator. I also had access to a Mad River Outrage (or is it the larger Outrage X? I alwasy forget) and Flashback and paddle those a little. I really like the maneuverability of the shorter boats - it was far closer to what I was used to in my kayaks, so I went short. At the time I really didn't know much at all and I liked both the Phantom and the Detonator. I ended up going with the Detonator as I met the factory crew at a couple of events and really liked them - and they sold me a demo .
The Detonator has been a great boat for me: it boofs great, resurfaces quickly after a drop/hole and is just a really great boat for what I've been doing. The secondary stability is rock solid and it'll really teach you to hold a solid J-lean as it's comfortable there. That stability has also saved my butt more than once I got my combat roll in the boat this fall and that opens up a whole new playing field. I can't compare it for dryness rolling with other boats since I haven't rolled many, but it seems pretty dry when running things (even more so if you could find one of those nifty battery powered bilge pumps they're now making).
I'm a fairly aggressive paddler and have progressed to paddling some class IV creeky stuff (Taylorville section of the Beaver) and recently ran the Lower Moose at just over 5'. I'm somewhat intimidated by big water still (e.g. the Ottawa and think a longer boat might be useful for those situations). The only drawbacks I find on the Detonator is the tracking is hard given the short length and flat bottom, as is ferrying. It is fairly slow, but that hasn't been too much of a problem to me - except on flatwater trying to keep up with my kayaking friends. Also, if you are trying to learn to carve turns, there's no edge to carve on: the wonderful double chine which creates all the secondary stability just will not seem to carve for me (I was trying to figure out outside-lean carving turns for eddying out, but it just slides sideways - of course that could be my technique).
Right now, I'm hoping to demo some hard chined boats and see what I think before deciding where I want to go from here. The list includes: Prelude, Ocoee and the new Esquif Zoom.
Wow - that's a long story In summary, the Detonator is a great first boat if you want a nimble, quick turning boat. If you mainly paddle big water, I would probably go slightly bigger (the Nitro or Rival maybe?) but for tight and technical, the Detonator rocks. You won't be able to do everything in it, but it'll definitely help you learn and build your paddling.
Matt
Posted on Dec 24, 2002, 7:09 AM
Early rolling
by Ejner
There are lots of boats out there and they all have individual qualities, good for some things bad for others but if you want to progress you gonna want a bomb proof roll and I think a roll is learned best early, in grade 2 practice. Thats how the kayakers approach paddling, learn to roll early in the sport and take off like a rocket from that base.(I have a problem roll, usually there occasionaly not)
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 1:33 PM
Early rolling boats
by Ejner
There are lots of boats out there and they all have individual qualities, good for some things, bad at others but if you want to progress you gonna need a bomb proof roll and not all boats are good rollers. I think a roll is learned best early, in grade 2 practice pools. Thats how the kayakers approach paddling, learn to roll early in the sport and take off like a rocket from that base with confidence.(I have a problem roll, usually there, occasionaly not)
That said, a great surfing, shredding, ferrying, spinning boat may not be the best rolling device. What ever you buy for your topsides-up-play check out your friends boats for roll practice machines or even buy a second hand one just for that purpose and put the skill down on your resume early. Its worth it. I started out in an Impulse and could never roll it, as a beginner. A friend loaned me his Genisis ? and I rolled it first try and couldn't stop. I have owned a Quake and that was the best roller ever for me and there are others. I was out for the first time in my new Detonator this morning and on the first dump I had to give it three trys to get past the sharp chine. I now know that problem is there and I now allow for it but if I was starting out a Detonator might be a real frustrator for a beginer to roll.
Anyways this has been the long way home but if you are into "it" you will go through a dozen second hand boats learning something from each one. Good luck and welcome.
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 2:07 PM
OC1 some thoughts
by Dale
I own a Mad River Outrage and an Esquif Detonator.
Paddled the Outrage for about 5 years. This is a great boat. Quick turning, dry, great on big and little water. Great boat to grow into. It does not compare to the Dagger Rival - the Rival is slow to turn and not as playful.
The Esquif Detonator is stable, quick, nible as they say, not as edgy as the Ocoee but there is an edge but a great little boat.
I would recommend the Outrage - at 12 feet. - some people really like the Outrage X which is 13 feet I believe.
Now if you really want to check out a new boat - Bell Canoe works is coming out with a ww canoe co-designed by David Yost (of Bell) and Bob Foote (who designed the Rival and Phantom no longer made by Dagger) I believe it is called the Prodigy - around 11ft 6inches. Should be out at Paddlesport show in New Jersey in March 2003. Bell makes a very beautiful boat.
As for the Ovation - I know Dagger thinks it is a bigger seller but I am not sure why - The Ocoee is a more challenging really grow into boat. But if you are considering the Ocoee go for the Esquif Detonator you will find it much more stable.
Hope that helps.
Posted on Dec 26, 2002, 2:09 PM