Off side Support Stroke and Rolling
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:30 pm
Off side Support Stroke and Rolling
by Paul Coyne
I've just started C1 paddling (used to paddle with those twin blades). Isn't life interesting with an off-side? Life upside down seems to be a common part of life in C Boating. So my rolling on-side isn't too bad, the 'C1 Challenge' video and a pair off goggles sorted that all out nicely. Now there seems to be little if any info on Off side rolling. So has anyone any comments on whether they roll off side or completely ignore it? While we're on the off side any comments towards off side support strokes will be appreciated, do you ignore it or use it?
As I've said I'm a self taught novice paddling a Super Ego (it was cheap & short enough not to get kicked out of the winter pool session)! My last question is which stroke works for moving these short boats forward? My 'J' stroke needs more practice (The pool wall and cartwheeling K1's get in the way) I've found the 'Perk' ok (2 on side strokes 2 off side or whatever is necessary) any thoughts? (ok practise makes perfect I'll sort that out eventually).
Finally any local C1 paddlers near Bristol? (That's the grey drizzley place in England UK)?
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 9:45 AM
Off side stuff
by Alden
Hey Paul,
The off-side was a great mystery to me too. I only know one book that covers it (Bruce Lessels's hard-to-find technique book, whatever it's called) and it didn't seem to make much sense to me.
The way I learned:
I'm a righty. I would switch the paddle around so I was holding it lefty, then just flip over on the left side and try to roll. If not just switch hands under water. So I got good at doing a lefty roll, feeling the hip-snap on that side, ect.
Then just try holding it righty (on the offside, this feels a little funny) and doing it. It's hard to describe how to hold it . . . it's nothing fancy, pretty much what you think it would be. Maybe someone else can go into this?
Anyway, there was a trick I remember: Bring your strong-side hand (for a righty = right hand) farther in toward the t-grip than you would normally hold the paddle. Thus both hands are more in toward the boat. Doing that was what helped me get it.
Another thing I picked up: don't just get your paddle to the surface. Try getting it above the surface and slapping it down as you roll. I dunno, worked for me.
Off-side braces are tough. I really don't know much about them. All I can say is that I wrecked my shoulder this summer doing them everyday! I'll have to defer to other, more experienced members of this board . . .
I had the pleasure of seeing Barry Kennon (current c-1 freestyle world champ) all the time this summer, and that guy didn't even need an offside brace!
Far as the "Perk" -- you should find what's best for you. You don't need to use it all the time of course, but I have been in the situation of having to boof off a falls using an off-side stroke. You know never know when you'll need that off-side, so might as well practice it.
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 6:02 PM
the off-side issue of life (as a c-boater)
by KNeal
Well, there are c-1'ers who swear by the off-side roll and use it exclusively. They feel better protected from the rocks. I use the on-side roll exclusively and because of that, I have developed several different on-side rolls to deal with whatever butt-kicking situation I put myself into (except for meeting Big Nasty, then all I was doing was reaching for my sprayskirt). Keeping an on-side roll has worked for me so far.
Practicing in a pool is a great place to try the off-side. Here is one method I have heard of: when sweeping out to your off-side, switch the grip of the shaft hand from a top-hand grip to an under-hand grip and really arch for the surface and slap the water as you initiate your snap. I told "kneeless" Joey about that technique one day on the New River Gorge and he readily picked up on it. Me, on the other hand, was left floundering around upside down switching hands and getting off of my off-side back to my on-side so I could roll up before my air supply gave out.
The off-side brace is a dicey stroke, at best. Be careful because your top-hand shoulder (your left shoulder if you paddle righty and the right shoulder if you are lefty) is in an unstable position and can easily slip out of joint (sublux) or even dislocate. Bad news. Remember to keep your shaft arm straight, your top-hand close to your head and same elbow pointed down and rotate your torso towards where the blade is planted. Practice that setup in the pool and remember that you most likely will flip over. Any time you flip to your off-side while on an off-side brace, immediately drop your top hand into the water.
By the way, are you in Bristol, Tennessee? Or Bristol, Virginia? Ha ha ha ha ha! I just couldn't help myself!
KNeal
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 7:14 PM
Righting Pry
by rob w
You could try a righting pry.As you are flipping to your offside slice the blade in against the bottom of your hull. Turn the blade 90 degrees and pry the onside of your boat back down. It doesn't always work but sometimes it does. Probably works better in an open boat because flips tend to be a little more slow motion in an open boat.
rob
Posted on Nov 22, 2002, 12:58 PM
Oh, yeah!
by KNeal
The pry is the way that I most often try to correct the boat when flipping to the off-side. In the short and edgier c-1's, you'll probably end up in a stern squirt. Just remember to smile when that happens and everyone will think you meant to do that.
KNeal
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 8:56 AM
Off side Roll, Meaning What?
by Randy
Just curious. Is anyone rolling to their off side without changing hands, swapping the grip and shaft hands? From the recent posts on this, I am unclear.
My on side roll has become pretty reliable (much practice in the pool and on the river.) I have started working on my off side roll. I swap the paddle over while I am set up under water (leaning forward against the boat.) Then I just follow my usual rolling mantra on the off side, using the paddle with switched hands, on my off side. It almost seems easier, because my upper body is confused enough, I roll with my lower body - as it should be.
Are others rolling up on their off side, without switching hands?
Randy
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 8:55 AM
cross bow roll
by spankerrobbie
there is a crossbow roll, i used to be able to do it in the pool, but it isnt very practical, and extremely unreliable. best bet is to either do a pry - style stroke on the onside, to try to right yourself, which can work occasionally, or work on the onside roll till its bombproof. of course, you can cheat and use a k-boat. but thats not recomended!
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 10:00 AM
off-side rolls
by Alden
This is a good question: should you use a cross-bow roll, or should you switch hands? My personal feeling is: I like to be able to do both. The C-bow roll is faster, so it's nice to know for surfing holes (when you want to roll fast to stay in the hole). But it's also less dependable (in my limited experience). So it's nice to know that you can always switch hands if need be.
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 7:55 PM
Off side Rolling!
by Paul Coyne
This Off Side malarky, my understanding is the 'Off' side means rolling without changing hands, e.g. I'm Left handed, my right hand is on the 'T' Grip and my left hand holds the Shaft. If I roll 'On'side then when I surface my Paddle is on my left-hand side ideally in the support stroke 'state'. Now as for the 'Off' side I would (in the ideal world) still hold the 'T' Grip in my right hand and hold the Shaft in my left hand but transfer the Paddle, so when I roll, the Paddle would be on my right hand side in a cross deck situation. Erm reality is I'm still upside down.......then having to switch back to the 'On' side roll.....
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 4:40 AM
Offside roll
by DaveM
I believe you are right in your definition of an offside roll (often called a bowmans roll). Switching is just that, switching sides to an on-side roll on the opposite side (confused yet?)
Anyway, the key to performing a succesfull bowmans roll is the same as a succesful onside roll...twisting your body around the boat and snapping the hip snap. You can work on this motion with a kick board. roll a couple of times w/ a kick board on your onside and then switch your offside. work on your motion on this side for a while striving not to put much pressure on the kick board during your roll.
Now, go for the paddle. There have been several good descriptions of how to perform a bowmans roll in previous posts, so I won't go into details.
Here are a couple of pointers.
1. The set-up for a bowmans roll is to hold the paddle blade in water in the paddle position. This will result in the blade being out of the water when you turn over.
2. Let your hand slide down the shaft during the hip snap portion as was describe earlier.
3. As always try and keep your head in the water until the boat is rolled back up. Think...Roll the boat and then get back in.
Good luck and let us know how you progress.
PS: Next try a back deck roll or a kayak roll (or as we C-boaters like to refer to it "Lugbill style roll") I recall seeing Jon Flip one time, and just reach forward underwater, take a big stroke and right himself, it was impressive and he never slowed down.....DM
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 6:07 AM
Going straight
by Randy
Regarding the last query in your post, I am at the point in my learning where I am focused on keeping all my power strokes forward of my torso. Seeing myself on video revealed that I was leaning upright and back too much. For me it stems from trailing back for a correction on every stroke.
When I stay forward more, and work small power strokes - really small by comparison to what I was used to - I almost don't need to correct. I think about trying to bring my off side knee to my paddle blade, using only shoulder rotation and stomach muscles. I also try to plant the paddle out from the boat, and bring it in to the boat. But all this should happen in a very short power burst, with little or no fore and aft body movement.
I once (during a pool session,) tied an adjustable lanyard from the chest patch on my vest to the bow of my boat, with a short elastic section in it. It revealed how much fore and aft movement I was used to. It was way too much. When I stopped the overly long strokes, going straight became easier. The lanyard also forced me to wind my shoulders to the off side at the start of the stroke. With no wind up, I had no torso power unless I was moving forward and back. The goal is rotation, and power from the torso and legs - the lower the better. The times I manage to do this, the boat tracks quite well.
Randy
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 9:07 AM
going straight
by spankerrobbie
a slalom caoch told me to keep my top arm shoulder still all the time when paddling forward. reach with the other shoulder and pull till the paddle is at your hip. the power is gone at this point and the j-pry thing is done then. its amazing how little 'correction' is needed at this point.
to avoid all the crossbow strokes, dont aim to accelerate straight away, look at doing some 50% power strokes beforehand. and aviod crossbow strokes for power at all times.
i remember lugbill doing a whole slalom course here in teh uk once only doing onside strokes, and he beat everyone else by 20 seconds!
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the input
by Rand
I'm going to think about the steady grip shoulder idea when I paddle.
Makes me want to clip that training lanyard to my high shoulder, the next time I'm at the pool.
Randy
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 3:35 PM
Forward Stroke article by D. Hearn
by DaveM
Davey published an article some years ago on the Forward stroke. It's very good. We used to have it on the old Concordia site, I'm not sure if Adam has tranfered it to C-boats.net.....DM
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 6:10 AM
by Paul Coyne
I've just started C1 paddling (used to paddle with those twin blades). Isn't life interesting with an off-side? Life upside down seems to be a common part of life in C Boating. So my rolling on-side isn't too bad, the 'C1 Challenge' video and a pair off goggles sorted that all out nicely. Now there seems to be little if any info on Off side rolling. So has anyone any comments on whether they roll off side or completely ignore it? While we're on the off side any comments towards off side support strokes will be appreciated, do you ignore it or use it?
As I've said I'm a self taught novice paddling a Super Ego (it was cheap & short enough not to get kicked out of the winter pool session)! My last question is which stroke works for moving these short boats forward? My 'J' stroke needs more practice (The pool wall and cartwheeling K1's get in the way) I've found the 'Perk' ok (2 on side strokes 2 off side or whatever is necessary) any thoughts? (ok practise makes perfect I'll sort that out eventually).
Finally any local C1 paddlers near Bristol? (That's the grey drizzley place in England UK)?
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 9:45 AM
Off side stuff
by Alden
Hey Paul,
The off-side was a great mystery to me too. I only know one book that covers it (Bruce Lessels's hard-to-find technique book, whatever it's called) and it didn't seem to make much sense to me.
The way I learned:
I'm a righty. I would switch the paddle around so I was holding it lefty, then just flip over on the left side and try to roll. If not just switch hands under water. So I got good at doing a lefty roll, feeling the hip-snap on that side, ect.
Then just try holding it righty (on the offside, this feels a little funny) and doing it. It's hard to describe how to hold it . . . it's nothing fancy, pretty much what you think it would be. Maybe someone else can go into this?
Anyway, there was a trick I remember: Bring your strong-side hand (for a righty = right hand) farther in toward the t-grip than you would normally hold the paddle. Thus both hands are more in toward the boat. Doing that was what helped me get it.
Another thing I picked up: don't just get your paddle to the surface. Try getting it above the surface and slapping it down as you roll. I dunno, worked for me.
Off-side braces are tough. I really don't know much about them. All I can say is that I wrecked my shoulder this summer doing them everyday! I'll have to defer to other, more experienced members of this board . . .
I had the pleasure of seeing Barry Kennon (current c-1 freestyle world champ) all the time this summer, and that guy didn't even need an offside brace!
Far as the "Perk" -- you should find what's best for you. You don't need to use it all the time of course, but I have been in the situation of having to boof off a falls using an off-side stroke. You know never know when you'll need that off-side, so might as well practice it.
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 6:02 PM
the off-side issue of life (as a c-boater)
by KNeal
Well, there are c-1'ers who swear by the off-side roll and use it exclusively. They feel better protected from the rocks. I use the on-side roll exclusively and because of that, I have developed several different on-side rolls to deal with whatever butt-kicking situation I put myself into (except for meeting Big Nasty, then all I was doing was reaching for my sprayskirt). Keeping an on-side roll has worked for me so far.
Practicing in a pool is a great place to try the off-side. Here is one method I have heard of: when sweeping out to your off-side, switch the grip of the shaft hand from a top-hand grip to an under-hand grip and really arch for the surface and slap the water as you initiate your snap. I told "kneeless" Joey about that technique one day on the New River Gorge and he readily picked up on it. Me, on the other hand, was left floundering around upside down switching hands and getting off of my off-side back to my on-side so I could roll up before my air supply gave out.
The off-side brace is a dicey stroke, at best. Be careful because your top-hand shoulder (your left shoulder if you paddle righty and the right shoulder if you are lefty) is in an unstable position and can easily slip out of joint (sublux) or even dislocate. Bad news. Remember to keep your shaft arm straight, your top-hand close to your head and same elbow pointed down and rotate your torso towards where the blade is planted. Practice that setup in the pool and remember that you most likely will flip over. Any time you flip to your off-side while on an off-side brace, immediately drop your top hand into the water.
By the way, are you in Bristol, Tennessee? Or Bristol, Virginia? Ha ha ha ha ha! I just couldn't help myself!
KNeal
Posted on Nov 21, 2002, 7:14 PM
Righting Pry
by rob w
You could try a righting pry.As you are flipping to your offside slice the blade in against the bottom of your hull. Turn the blade 90 degrees and pry the onside of your boat back down. It doesn't always work but sometimes it does. Probably works better in an open boat because flips tend to be a little more slow motion in an open boat.
rob
Posted on Nov 22, 2002, 12:58 PM
Oh, yeah!
by KNeal
The pry is the way that I most often try to correct the boat when flipping to the off-side. In the short and edgier c-1's, you'll probably end up in a stern squirt. Just remember to smile when that happens and everyone will think you meant to do that.
KNeal
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 8:56 AM
Off side Roll, Meaning What?
by Randy
Just curious. Is anyone rolling to their off side without changing hands, swapping the grip and shaft hands? From the recent posts on this, I am unclear.
My on side roll has become pretty reliable (much practice in the pool and on the river.) I have started working on my off side roll. I swap the paddle over while I am set up under water (leaning forward against the boat.) Then I just follow my usual rolling mantra on the off side, using the paddle with switched hands, on my off side. It almost seems easier, because my upper body is confused enough, I roll with my lower body - as it should be.
Are others rolling up on their off side, without switching hands?
Randy
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 8:55 AM
cross bow roll
by spankerrobbie
there is a crossbow roll, i used to be able to do it in the pool, but it isnt very practical, and extremely unreliable. best bet is to either do a pry - style stroke on the onside, to try to right yourself, which can work occasionally, or work on the onside roll till its bombproof. of course, you can cheat and use a k-boat. but thats not recomended!
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 10:00 AM
off-side rolls
by Alden
This is a good question: should you use a cross-bow roll, or should you switch hands? My personal feeling is: I like to be able to do both. The C-bow roll is faster, so it's nice to know for surfing holes (when you want to roll fast to stay in the hole). But it's also less dependable (in my limited experience). So it's nice to know that you can always switch hands if need be.
Posted on Nov 23, 2002, 7:55 PM
Off side Rolling!
by Paul Coyne
This Off Side malarky, my understanding is the 'Off' side means rolling without changing hands, e.g. I'm Left handed, my right hand is on the 'T' Grip and my left hand holds the Shaft. If I roll 'On'side then when I surface my Paddle is on my left-hand side ideally in the support stroke 'state'. Now as for the 'Off' side I would (in the ideal world) still hold the 'T' Grip in my right hand and hold the Shaft in my left hand but transfer the Paddle, so when I roll, the Paddle would be on my right hand side in a cross deck situation. Erm reality is I'm still upside down.......then having to switch back to the 'On' side roll.....
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 4:40 AM
Offside roll
by DaveM
I believe you are right in your definition of an offside roll (often called a bowmans roll). Switching is just that, switching sides to an on-side roll on the opposite side (confused yet?)
Anyway, the key to performing a succesfull bowmans roll is the same as a succesful onside roll...twisting your body around the boat and snapping the hip snap. You can work on this motion with a kick board. roll a couple of times w/ a kick board on your onside and then switch your offside. work on your motion on this side for a while striving not to put much pressure on the kick board during your roll.
Now, go for the paddle. There have been several good descriptions of how to perform a bowmans roll in previous posts, so I won't go into details.
Here are a couple of pointers.
1. The set-up for a bowmans roll is to hold the paddle blade in water in the paddle position. This will result in the blade being out of the water when you turn over.
2. Let your hand slide down the shaft during the hip snap portion as was describe earlier.
3. As always try and keep your head in the water until the boat is rolled back up. Think...Roll the boat and then get back in.
Good luck and let us know how you progress.
PS: Next try a back deck roll or a kayak roll (or as we C-boaters like to refer to it "Lugbill style roll") I recall seeing Jon Flip one time, and just reach forward underwater, take a big stroke and right himself, it was impressive and he never slowed down.....DM
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 6:07 AM
Going straight
by Randy
Regarding the last query in your post, I am at the point in my learning where I am focused on keeping all my power strokes forward of my torso. Seeing myself on video revealed that I was leaning upright and back too much. For me it stems from trailing back for a correction on every stroke.
When I stay forward more, and work small power strokes - really small by comparison to what I was used to - I almost don't need to correct. I think about trying to bring my off side knee to my paddle blade, using only shoulder rotation and stomach muscles. I also try to plant the paddle out from the boat, and bring it in to the boat. But all this should happen in a very short power burst, with little or no fore and aft body movement.
I once (during a pool session,) tied an adjustable lanyard from the chest patch on my vest to the bow of my boat, with a short elastic section in it. It revealed how much fore and aft movement I was used to. It was way too much. When I stopped the overly long strokes, going straight became easier. The lanyard also forced me to wind my shoulders to the off side at the start of the stroke. With no wind up, I had no torso power unless I was moving forward and back. The goal is rotation, and power from the torso and legs - the lower the better. The times I manage to do this, the boat tracks quite well.
Randy
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 9:07 AM
going straight
by spankerrobbie
a slalom caoch told me to keep my top arm shoulder still all the time when paddling forward. reach with the other shoulder and pull till the paddle is at your hip. the power is gone at this point and the j-pry thing is done then. its amazing how little 'correction' is needed at this point.
to avoid all the crossbow strokes, dont aim to accelerate straight away, look at doing some 50% power strokes beforehand. and aviod crossbow strokes for power at all times.
i remember lugbill doing a whole slalom course here in teh uk once only doing onside strokes, and he beat everyone else by 20 seconds!
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the input
by Rand
I'm going to think about the steady grip shoulder idea when I paddle.
Makes me want to clip that training lanyard to my high shoulder, the next time I'm at the pool.
Randy
Posted on Nov 24, 2002, 3:35 PM
Forward Stroke article by D. Hearn
by DaveM
Davey published an article some years ago on the Forward stroke. It's very good. We used to have it on the old Concordia site, I'm not sure if Adam has tranfered it to C-boats.net.....DM
Posted on Nov 27, 2002, 6:10 AM