C-Forum

I was talking to Steve from Liquidlogic the other day and asked about their console. He was very interested in feedback. I think they are a bit stuck on final realization of the project. He asked among other things:

1) whether they could just provide the molded plastic bit and let people install it themselves

and

2) what people would be willing to pay for a good c1 console

To the first question I said that c1ers were used to doing conversions and people would likely be happy to get what they can and that people sometimes prefer their own thighstraps etc anyhow (I think this is a small thing but then they aren't in the thighstrap business and small barriers add up).

To the pricepoint question I really didn't know. I said I'd get back to him. In the meantime, what can everybody suggest while I've got his ear?

Another question I had was would people like to see a molded plastic bulkhead a la the Perception Slasher? Or how do we envision the perfect storebought c1 console?

Anybody? Everybody?

Not the slasher route, please -- if your legs are too big for it then you can't carve down plastic -- and if you're too small then you have to pad it anyway ...

Just a minicel console and seat, with some reeally solid strap attachement points, that is all underpinned by some base bar or other that will interface with the wall to wall hull strengthener found in LL, pyranha, dagger etc boats .

I'd pay $100 for such a thing.

/edwin

I think that if they provide a decent plastic form that is readily mounted in the current holes in different kayaks (ie. easily adjusted to fit different boats) and provide just, for examples some very basic foam padding with it (thin layer on the base for under the knees, 3/4" on the seat, or provide more as an optional extra outfitting kit, then that is probably the best solution. I knwo when I did a recetn conversion (my first) the hardest part was getting the pedastal mounted in the boat. Foaming it out really isn't too difficult nor too timeconsuming and you'll have to do it anyway to customize the fit. Including some sort of foot retention system would probably be a good thing, as would providing mounting positions for straps - but leave the straps to individuals (or maybe another optional extra kit if they feel like it). Some form of hip huggers should also be included.

I think for what I've just described $100-150 would be a fair price. They should also look at what comparable outfitting for solo canoes costs.

Hope this helps

Matt

After Much hassling on the LL Forum board i received this response from Woody.

Topic: C-1 Saddle, cost vs numbers
LL C-1 saddle has been put on hold. We have made approx. 5 that the team is using. These were made using a prototype mold which is very time consuming (as far as molding goes) which makes the saddles very expensive ($150 each). Its because of this excessive cost that we have decided to put the C-1 saddle development on hold for the time being.

--------------
Woody


http://206.114.155.77/cgi-bin/ikonboard ... ;f=1;t=923

That sort of sucks green pond water through a very long straw! I guess we will continue to be not only modifiers but fabricators! Bummer!

It seems that my first boat was outfit for about $70 dollars. It was a sort of Mohawkesq thigh retainer design and that included foam and the strap and various stainless screws. I'm not sure exactly how much it was because I had surplus foam when I was finished. I'm using the fence post idea now which is plenty sturdy for mounting thigh straps to. With careful craftsmenship you get a light and sturdy hull out of it. They cost about $10 for a 6' post and you can outfit 2 boats. So I have a creeker and a player with this set up. Straps and buckles can be obtained for cheap at the local hardware store. Now it costs very little to do a new boat because I just rip stuff from one boat and put it in the new one. The fence thingy makes them pretty modular.

LL would have to make it compatable with the DIY option to make me switch. Although having seen their saddle up close it would be pretty tempting because the boat was super light. $50 I'd be all over it. $100 bucks maybe but I might only ever buy one and move it boat to boat. $150 fah-ged about it.

If I get a chance I'll post pics of my g-force when I'm finished. It went to the lake last week it seems like it will be a fun little boat. (emphaisis on little). My knee's still buggered so I'm taking my time.

JD

I suggest that perhaps this is the problem: the designers went to town to build the best factory c1 console they could and crippled the project because it is too fancy, i.e. too expensive. I think this is perhaps partly why Steve was so interested in what I could tell him: they would very much like to do it but the project got out of control.

I'll be talking to him in a bit *anyway* so I think if we can offer some way of salvaging the dream that would be cool.

My idea is to pass on not what we'd like to see in an ideal world with unlimited budgets but to pass on the essentials of what would work in this world with this market. Things such as something that attaches without having to drill or glue, that prevents the hull from oilcanning and at the same time providing attachment points is a good start. Maybe bulkhead "hoops" (a la the golden arches) would work well as a base for padding up a bulkhead? Brainstorming here. I don't think we should flood their board with posts--that only gets overwhelming especially for a new company like this. The best is if we can summarize some kind of minimal common ground and see if that would help them move this project forward.

So what do you say?

My suggestions: Most boats have bow and stern pilars which keep the boat from crushing. They could make a console that just slides into the foam after you (the user) cuts a slice into the foam on either end at the appropriate locations. This is exactly how most kayak seats are installed. If you then put a 3" bolt through the saddle, into the foam and out the other side you'd have a pretty secure anchor point for the saddle that would require no drilling in the hull. If the bottom of the saddle was flat but flexible you'd have pretty decent rigidity of the hull underneth. Using a lower grade/soft plastic that could be easily heated to form to the hull might help as well. This doesn't have to be the same bombproof / abrasion resistant stuff you make hulls out of. Just make it slightly thicker for strength. Then apply some good velcro and voila its stuck there. Justy make sure the adhesive on the velcro is waterproof (Better yet, use DAP) and use alot of velcro (more surface area = more friction). . WHen you get it home, if its too heavy take a drill to it and lighten it up some.

Here is a copy of an email message that I sent to a company that is not interested in producing a C1 outfitting base. I think the information is very relevent to the current topic.

I thought I write a little piece about an idea that has been floating around in my head for the last year or so, hence the following text about a C1 outfitting base.

I believe there is a growing need for a C1 outfitting base ...

I have heard that the Dagger or Perception C1 conversion base is no longer readily available. Besides, I never like it in the first place. It used heavy metal D-rings, it required holes to be drilled in the hull, the thigh straps were awkward to use, and the saddle was uncomfortable! But, having said all that there were advantages to it since it provided a water bottle holder, allowed for some adjustability, and was easy to remove and reuse.

I think the need for a C1 outfitting base will continue to grow since kayak and canoe companies are no longer making C1s, they are however, pumping out numerous new kayak designs every year and C-boaters are converting them to C1s. Albeit a small niche market that big corporate manufactures are not interested in but it is a non-mainstream market that you are already addressing, think of it as one more product to add to your selection.

Off the top of my head, here are some ideas, in no particular order, about what a C1 outfitting base could offer.
1. Adjustability. Kayakers are always trying out each other boats but C1ers usually do not have that option since in most C1s the outfitting was custom made for him or her.
2. Portable. Suitable for playboat, creek, expedition, or river running conversions. The future of C1s is in kayak conversions. All types of kayaks.
3. Non-proprietary. The base should mount in a variety of kayak manufactures’ boats.
4. Supported. Provide hull support.
5. User Friendly Installation. Easy to install and remove. Easy to adjust.
6. No Holes Required. The installation should require no holes to be drilled in the hull.
7. Fittings or provisions for optional equipment:
<sum> Saddle
<sum> Lap Belt
<sum> Thigh Straps, single pull release system
<sum> Knee Straps
<sum> Knee pads, cups, or wedges
<sum> Water bottle holder, or sponge holder
<sum> Ankle blocks, lifts, wedge support
<sum> Gear loops for clipping in a drybag, throw bag, etc
<sum> Forward bulkhead
<sum> Possibly even hip support
Overall promote adjustability, comfort, and safety.

I would welcome the opportunity to discuss a C1 outfitting base.