C-Forum

I got the Playboaters Handbook II last night(alot of great instruction, which can be transposed from kayak to c-1 with a little thought.) This afternoon I went out and learned to back deck roll. For tipping to the offside, it brings you back up really quickly, to me it seemed twice as fast, and really easy. I struggled for a year learning to onside roll, back in my OC days, and wasn't 100% with it until the end of my second year paddling. If the back deck roll is as easy as it seemed to me, why don't more people use it?

Aric

I think every good paddler uses it more than there normal onside roll...i know i do. It's soo much faster... It is also much easyier tyo learn after you have the concept of the roll body positioning, movement and hip snap. Also some people may find it intimating since you are opeing up your body and exposing yourself more. In playboating espically in holes...it a must have..it also can lead to sweet moves like donkey flips/ air screws much are just basicly a bounce into a back deck roll.

( I also use the back deck roll in my open boat)

The only reason not to use it is because it does open your body and face up hitting rocks on the river bed. In holes it's super fast and great for keeping a ride going if you flip! It's great for playboating and deep rivers, but I'd think twice before exposing that much body when paddling shallow or steep stuff.


(I'd say a C1 back deck roll is the fastest way to roll a C1 and way faster than 95% of the kayakers out there can roll)

Judd

I agree with the previous comments about why not to use it.... too many shallow rivers. It's fine if you paddle predominantly nice big deep rivers, but in NY this doesn't seem to describe that many of the places we paddle. I'd hate to get into the habit and then get myself trashed - I predominantly use a standard onside C1 or OC1 roll (for the OC1 in an offside flip, I use a momentum roll, which is actually pretty darned quick if you really go with it. I have just started practising my back deck roll more for use playboating, but I definitely think it'll be a selective roll, not my automatic roll of choice, atleast until I move somewhere with more water .

On a similar note, it's always interesting for me when I go up to the Ottawa to watch so many people leaning back when doing their regular onside rolls (kayaks). I know that it's harder to roll tucked forward, but still it makes me shiver inside.

Matt

The Ottawa river teachs lots of bad habits. Never ever having to worry about rocks below the surface is definately one of them. Getting used to having 5 feet of leeway on lines is another one. Can't beat it for great play though!!!

Judd

Ya i paddle an ocoee and learned to roll inthat but my teacher had a forplay converted C1 and that roll was to slow so i learned the back deck roll and its sick!!!! its so much quicker... and i guess since im a tiny little guy its cool..i get kinda worried about scrapin my face but i modified my protec snowboardin helemt with a plexiglass faceplat thingy and it makes me more comfortable...

Yup, the backdeck roll is the main reason I attached a polo face mask to my helmet.

I spend a lot of time looking down at the river bed, although the back deck roll is so fast the exposure time is very small.

Even in a standard C roll you are looking down as you come up on the low brace.

Plus if you are in a playboat, and your backdeck roll is approaching a dry roll, the the bow is quite deep (almost a low angle cartwheel) so that will hit any shallow rocks first ... hopefully !

/edwin

Hi, Aric, and welcome to C-boats . Plenty of boaters have pointed out the obvious reason to not use the back-deck roll predominantly (your face and front of your torso and arms are exposed ). I want to point out that everyone needs several rolling methods because every flip is not the same everytime on every river, otherwise, you haven't learned to fix the cause of your flipping in the first place .

To my knowledge, there is the standard low brace on-side roll, bow deck roll, back deck roll (helicopter roll), variations of these methods (depending on whether you're in swirlly water or a recirculating hydraulic), and one that Dave M. demonstrated to me called the "slalom" (?) roll (basically, you are taking a forward stroke uderwater ). It looked really neat when Dave did it, but I have yet to get close to succeeding. Oh, yeah. Let's not forget the off-side roll where you roll up on your off-side WITHOUT switching hands !

PAC can verify how fast I can do a back deck roll. The thought of bashing into rocks simply terrifies me and I make DAM* sure to stick that roll the first time . However, you have to use the roll that best fits the kind of flip you have and where your paddle is when you go upside down. It's kind of hard to use a back deck roll when you are already tucked tightly against the deck of your bow . As for a fast roll, try the bow deck roll when flipping to your off-side and your blade is already toward the bow. That's pretty fast. I'll use it for speed rolling and when I flip to my off-side when stern squirting (which means I use it a lot ).

KNeal

So does this back deck roll enable you to do an effective off-side roll then?
Could someone try an explain the back deck roll anyway. I'm mucking around with the rolls and would be interested it adding to the arsenal. (Probably for Sea surfing if I can get the hang of surfing C1, alot different to surfing K1 me thinks)!

back deck roll is when you roll with your back plastered to the back deck (the area sternward of the cockpit).

the reason to do it is bc it's faster -- if you flip offside, you have to get your body under the boat and around to the other side. to do this fast, you dont want to dive down deep under the boat, but just slice along the shortest path to the other side of the boat.

staying close to the back deck is this quickest way.

there aint no need to do this if you flip onside, because you dont need to go under the boat.

i do it all the time on shallow creeks and i havent gotten bitten yet, but i can see why some people wouldnt want to do it. but still i think that front-deck rolls are hard in c-1 bc you cant do a sweep roll like in kayak. it's hard to roll a c-1 with the blade starting up at the bow.

this is something i plan to work on this winter in the pool, but for now i find front deck rolls hard and slow. with a back-deck roll im so much quicker, the front-deck seems to give you more time to hit stuff.
Alden

it is a little freaky trying to change my mindset from sloppy backdeck rolls from playboating to creeking low brace rolls off the front of the boat. I have had a few times flipping over while creeking when I either knew there were alot of rocks coming up, or I figured there might be. In some of those cases I tucked forward and set up for a regular roll, and took the rocks in the back. Sometimes I have found I would rather be upsidedown and tucked up than trying to roll while going over rocks. Not sure if anyone else has the same approach.

On the backdeck roll and creeking, one C1 friend once told me that he would always use the backdeck roll, figuring he could protect his face with his arms. Yikes. One decent hit that pushes your arms out of the way leaves you totally exposed.

Any roll that gets you O2 is a good roll. As for the "back deck roll" - my thoughts are if it works - use it.
As for exposure to the face I wonder how other rolls expose the base of your spine (between your helmet and PFD) - Now that is truly scary. Or your head - helmets are good but are they that good!!!
Corran A. posted on this very topic on Boatertalk as to his preference (back deck) and I sort of have to agree. Particularly when your fast at it (KNeal - ). Overall I think he noted "go with what works"! I can't argue with that.
Besides I would say I really don't think of the roll I'm going to use when I flipping or upside down. I just try to focus on where I am and issues I have to deal with - rocks, holes, strainers, etc. I then just get up to the surface as quick as I can, however I can!!

PS: Related to rolls I took some hard hits yesterday about the head and body and have some helmet questions to float but that will be a different post.