C-Forum

i want to follow up on the forward stroke thread. i agree it's important to have a good stroke, and to practice it on flatwater, but a flatwater stroke is not a whitewater stroke. i heard a story about a flatwater racer who came to a slalom race and thought he would win because the slalom guys appeared to have shitty strokes. needless to say, he got killed.

a whitewater stroke is different. i would be interested to hear what people think about creeking. i think it's more important for general river running to have good balance, rather than a good forward stroke.

how about this:
how many moves have you missed because you didn't have a good forward stroke? was it perhaps related to lack of physical strength?

then think about how many times you've frelled up because you felt tippy.

i dont have a great forward stroke. but i have a good one. yet i feel like I can't employ it on hard race courses or class V rivers because I am always leaning on my paddle to brace.

just throwing some stuff out there
later
Alden

First, you DO need to be comfortable on whitewater...the biggest issue I think new CBoaters face is the intimidation of paddling on moving water and feeling "tippy". BUT, a good fast stroke rate does make for a MUCH better brace than a low brace. It's just working up the confidence to go for those off-side strokes (especially if you've got a heavy paddle...).

That said, to really work the water you've got to have a good stroke. I'm fairly comfortable on the water I run, but know I need work on my strokes (being self-taught really has it's limitations!) This is one of the many reasons I hope to make it to some slalom races next year-to be whooped by Kaz not doubt, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot. In my mind that's what makes CBoating so great-a lot of it IS technique that can't be muscled through a la 'yak, and you can always learn something and keep evolving.

....now that we are moving along to moving and whitewater I'll mention another helpful thing I learned.

If you ever saw Frankie Hubbard paddle it hardly ever looked like he took any strokes... and you thought... how can he be going that fast and not be doing anything?... simply by keeping the boat, his blade, edges, and center of mass on the "green" (fast) water. It was always amazing watching him reach out and grab little patches of water to move him around so quickly.

Next time you have a opportunity to sit by a rapid, take some time to look at which lines of the water are moving the fastest and not just downstream.... those jet's are the "homey" lines, and chances are those are the one's he'd use.

This actually links in very well with the Rafting diatribe I have yet to post...GOOD raft guides use a rafts superior vantage point (even compared to a C1 ) to look ahead for those lines, and steer the boat down them. If I had to I could get a raft down all 18 miles of the Hudson with a full crew of folks not paddling. I'd be pretty tired, but the trip wouldn't be much slower in actuality. With a raft (and good downriver racing) it's all about planning your line, and not for the next 20 feet, but for as far ahead as you can see, and connecting all the fast moving sections of the water together with whatever your river craft is.

Sir Adam wrote: This is one of the many reasons I hope to make it to some slalom races next year-to be whooped by Kaz not doubt, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot. .

If you beat Kaz, we'll have to throw you a party or something. We need some people to come challenge him before he grows too confident or lazy! Good thing Casey Eichfield and Alden are finally catching up to him!

I have great respect for Kaz and his canoeing skills, but it would be nice to see a race with some real competition for him.

Evelyn

Two comments about forward strokes in difficult whitewater:
1) Keep the strokes relatively short and fast
2) Watch where you place them.
SYOTR,
Bruce

About 12 years ago I tried switching from OC to C-1 (Slasher). I never got the stability and paddled with short strokes, always ready to brace. I could run class 4 (and easy 5) water in an OC, but was swimming class 2 in a C-1. What used to drive me crazy was a picture in a book (I think it was called “First Descents”) of Jamie McEwan running a river and he was paddling through some gnarly water with a full forward learn on a powerful cross-over stroke. I thought his control was for superstars like him only- and after 3 years in a C-1 I got rid of it. I could never imagine trusting my cross-over enough to paddle that way.

I eventually made the transition from my old style (bobbing like a cork) OC paddling to a Cascade, then back to a Slasher. I learned that whitewater paddling in a C-1 was so much more- the balance that Alden described, the anticipation of subtle shifts (twitches) in boat placement or angle, the endurance to keep paddling (and all the stability that is gained from momentum). It is that challenge that makes it so much fun to practice/train.

HOWEVER, I am not about to provide someone like Kaz with the challenge that Evelyn brought up. I am really impressed by his talent in the boat and by his encouragement of those who are catching up to him, and sometimes even beating him.

My summary- a whitewater paddler needs solid fundamentals that are best initially learned/refined on flatwater. However, the field of motor learning tells us that there is very limited generalization (transfer) of learning from a less complex environment (i.e. flatwater) to a more complex environment (i.e. whitewater); and there is very good transfer of learning from complex environments to less complex environments. Solution- training must include practice on rivers as complex as you plan to race/run.

So Alden- when you come home for the holiday break please give me a call and we can get out on the Farmington and you can give pointers to improve my whitewater stroke. It needs it.

FYI- later this week I am off to West Virginia without a boat . I have an interview with the physical therapy program at WVU’s medical school. If that works out I will be teaching down there. I will let you know.

Jim

I wholeheartedly agree with Bruce. I learned my forward stroke back in the early 80's from Bruce Lessels. He stressed short and choppy. Someone made a comment about my stroke at a race a couple of years ago, he was a newbie and asked the person he was standing next to how I generated so much speed with such a short stroke.

I also agree with Alden about balance. With practice you will find it pretty amazing how far you can lean the boat while still getting a good stroke in. It all has to do with disconnecting your upper body from your lower body, another thing Bruce Lessels stressed. It all comes down to confidence in your leans. Practice in flat water leaning to one side of the other with your paddle out of the water. Just remember lean with your lower body and keep your upper body over the boat. You may also find with experience that a well placed forward stroke is better than a brace. A well placed cross-forward has a pretty good amount of stabiblity, again with the proper lean.

Also as Jim noted, learning is done in a comfortable environment, then the skills are transferred to more difficult situations.

I have learned a lot of little things that help my boating technique on class 2-3 water at the slalom courses. You can also make a class 3 river into a class 4 by trying difficult moves in a safer environment. I find the Dryway is a great place to try some moves that require good water reading and finesse skills rather than big power.


Ken

Here's a cut from the '89 Worlds. Davey is shown first. His boat seems to move more vertically, but it may be just the clips I selected.

Lugbill doesn't seem to have a special stroke for whitewater. In fact, he seems to paddle everything as if it were class one. He doesn't move his body that much - and his boat doesn't bob much.

It's amazing how low-volume the boats were. I think that the Extrabat was the current boat, and that was regarded as big volume at the time.

This is a 6Mb .wmv file. Download it first, save the page, and then run it from Explorer.

http://wwslalom.org/paddling/strokes.wmv

bob, those clips are incredible. every time i watch those i can't believe how good those guys are. how long those courses were, how in shape they were to be able to power like that for three and a half minutes.

two things I noticed in thqt video:

1) Those guys, especially Lugbill, look like they are, as Bob said, paddling in class I. Their strokes are almost always complete, and their steering strokes are rare and brief. I want to get like that. But it requires so much balance and it requires . . . something else. i don't know -- better strokes that keep you on line, I guess.

you see this with the top creek boaters too. they are hammering down stuff that everyone else is bracing down. that's what i meant by balance. they have balance enough to be able to lean out over the boat and take strokes.

this comes in very handy running big rapids!

2) Something very interesting that not a lot of people do. Davey always says it: Always keep the first part of your stroke. Even when he does a quick, choppy stroke (rare) he does it up front. you never see these guys paddling back near the cockpit, like rec boaters. I'm not sure why, but they always get their paddle up near the bow. they always start the stroke in the same place.

Trying to make yourself and your technique predictable in an unpredictable medium. that's what it's all about, eh?

I have found that to paddle over the bow like these guys takes strong legs to support you. When I try to paddle like that, My quads are killing me.

Jim, I'll be home saturday, but I have to do a serious overhaul on my glass boat. Once that's done maybe we could go hit the gates at Tville if Mike campbell has them up.

I have seen that pic of jaime in "First descents" on the Santa Maria. How about that for some river-running : four guys, three of them C-1s, living out of their glass race boats for five days, running a first descent, all of it class IV-V! Pretty cool.
later
Alden

Is anybody else having problems with that video? I'm fairly computer literate yet I can't get it to work on either my home machine or work machine. Both have something between pretty current and very current setups. Maybe too current?

Guess I'll have to get the video tape out!

I've added a RealVideo file - 5Mb at http://www.wwslalom.org/paddling/strokes.rm