C-Forum

Many paddlers, myself included, have a declining sucess
rate for rolling, i.e 99% in the pool, declining to around 0%
getting thrown around in a hole , in cold water, or after hitting
a couple of rocks.

I've got a few ideas, but am wondering what teaching tips anyone has to help 'pool rollers' make the transition to the river and keep the success rate as high as possible. Especially exercises which can be done this winter in pool sessions!

There was also a great article on the bombproof roll somewhere on the web if anyone has seen this.

Thanks- (O)C.

I struggled with my roll for what seemed like years. But only because it was. After I got past outfitting and mechanics and finally got a pool roll, I had trouble getting it to follow me to the river. Once you've got a strong pool roll, if it is not happening in the river, it is a "head" issue. I speak from experience. Ignoring technique - rolling in a river is different. But you already knew that.

1. rolling in a river is different because it can be cold (warm pools spoil you) - practice in a still place on the river. Do it until that is no longer a distraction. Dress for it! Not sure how to imitate that in a pool without using lots of ice...

2. rolling in a river is different because it is moving - Not only is it moving, it is noisy under there ! The beating of many kettle drums can be distracting at first. Peal out into current in a place where there is nothing downstream and practice rolling. Peal out so you are going to roll upstream, downstream, and parallel to current. Rolling on the upstream side is marginally more difficult, wait a beat or two until you catch up to the speed of the current and it will make almost no difference at all. Get that roll strong and it will make no difference. Practice rolling in current until that is not a distraction.

In a pool, try paddling up to speed, then flip (to on- and off-sides) and roll; paddle up to speed and put the boat into a hard turn; etc...

3. rolling in a "feature" is disorienting - Play in a place with few/no consequences downstream, play hard so that you are likely to flip. When you flip, it won't exactly be a surprise, but it won't be as staged as in previous steps. Start in smaller holes and work up to bigger. Sidesurf - flip to your paddle (easy); tuck and flip upstream (dynamic); flip in the turbulence behind the hole; etc. Get a sense of where you are - still in the hole? In the backwash? Out in current? Have somebody spot you - you do know how to accept an eskimo rescue, right? Knowing that someone is watching and you can avoid a swim can make this less daunting. ["Play" isn't just fun, it helps build skills so when river running you end up unintentionally in a "feature", you've got an idea what to do... i.e. - show off]

In a pool? Have somebody flip you, preferably from behind so it is somewhat of a surprise.

4. there are no rocks in the pool... I can't say I ever staged practice around bumping into rocks, not sure I'd recommend it. However, consider that when encountering rocks, you are probably far better off, tucked into your turtle shell of an open boat or up against your trusty C-1 than going on, as the astronauts call them - an EVA (extra-vehicular activity). Your PFD is not just for floating, it makes a decent body armor, too. Remind yourself about this a couple of times at the top of each rapid.

[I know the pool tips are weak, I'm fortunate to live where the water doesn't freeze, or when it does it is only on the edges...]

Practice each of the the above a few times - like, oh, maybe 500 to 1000 times each, until each becomes automatic. Hopefully this will translate into a spontaneous combat roll - you will roll up before you even had a chance to think about swimming.

If that is still elusive - shoot for the "combat pause". Make a deal with yourself - say "Self, when we flip over, hang on for at least a count of one - see how things are -then we can swim if we really need to." Each trip out, increment that count up to three or four (since this is the "C-Forum", here is some C code for that "i +=1"). For a born water-weenie like me, it was a big deal to get past the "dry haired wet exit". [In the pool, have someone shake your boat while you are inverted?]

Do you use nose plugs? Being upside down and trying to think whilst keeping the water out was too much for me. Don't think of it as cheating. Cheating is using the "S" word that shall remain unspoken. (Inside joke for ex-r.b.p.ers)

After you get a couple of basic combat rolls, that part of your brain that is in charge of self preservation, the part that does not always listen to the rational part of your brain, should be getting the picture that rolling beats the everliving crap out of swimming. It may even let the concious part of your brain stay in control in some of those more chaotic moments, like when you bounce over rocks ("hey, we hit a rock, but that is no reason to eject") or get stuck in a long wave train/turbulent runout ("hang on just a few more seconds").

What I'm trying to say, and wasting all of these pixels to say it, is be persistent - have patience with yourself. If you want it bad enough it will come. If an aquaphobe and klutz like myself can get a respectable roll, ANYONE can.

Next thing you know, you will be pulling off impressive rolls after bouncing over boulders and doing the tango in hydraulics. You'll be so impressed with yourself, you'll be hard to be around. "No sh!t, there is was..."

Scott
"I roll because I swim even worse than I paddle"

...for obtaining a bombproof roll in the pool is to attend a couple of crowded college pool sessions like the ones here at Dartmouth. A small pool filled with twenty kayakers all trying (with varying degrees of success and control) to throw down creates a few river- like conditions. Namely:

1. Turbulent water
2. Obstacles
3. Unexpected flipping on both on and off sides
4. Noise (even more disturbing and distracting, at times, than the calming rumble of whitewater)

Intimidating for a beginner with a weak roll, but ideal for someone trying to work on that bombproof roll. The benefit if you have a long boat in the pool such as the Atom I'm learning to roll? When your friends tip you over, you can get back at them by pretending that they are rocks in the river that you crash into unexpectedly...

The pool is so hectic sometimes that we have to have "beginner nights" one day a week where no one with a consistent roll is allowed in a boat!

I'll probably end up swimming some this spring anyway, but I'm hoping that my "crowded college pool session" experience will at least partly prepare me for actual river conditions.

Best,
Evelyn

I was a swim junkie in the river for several months, maybe a year after I could roll reliably in the pool. At the end of my swimming career, my paddling buddies had started calling me by a new nickname - "Fourswim Foster." Some days I was pretty frustrated. Two things that I worked on in the pool finally paid off in the river.

First, I quit practicing my pool rolls from a prepared position. As much as I flip in the river, I am rarely in position to roll when it happens. So, try holding your paddle by either end with one hand, leaning back, and then flipping in the pool. Or, set your paddle in the water, just out of reach, then flip. Work your way over to the paddle, set up, hang for a second, then roll. The time and focus that it takes to find your paddle and get set up are good training for the confusion of a flip in the river. Being underwater in your boat when you are way out of form will also highlight any sloppiness in your outfitting. Don't go for the roll until you are really set up. This will transfer to the river. It will train you to take some time underwater to assess your position before trying to roll. Make sure you get set up before you try to roll so you don't tweak your shoulder.

The second thing that helped was to conciously open or close my eyes in the pool. At first, I was closing my eyes, and did not know it. Opening them really helped in locating my setup, and mellowed me out psychologically. After I became more consistent at finding a good setup from a wild flip position, I started closing my eyes and trying the same thing. I would rush, and blow my set up more often. The same thing was happening in the river. Learning to slow down and find my set up position in the pool with my eyes closed helped me on the river. But, I try to open my eyes on the river rolls, it helps me stay more calm, even when the water seems dark.

I agree with Scott that transferring a good pool roll to the river is very much a head game. You might try paddling easier rivers than you are used to next season. If you play more and get some easy roll practice on the river, it should all lead to fewer swims.

Great suggestions in previous posts. Wanted to give my two or three cents worth.
I was at the Ocoee in my C-Boat, having paddled the Spanish Fly all Summer, and was playing. I got tossed over and became disoriented and tried to roll up on my off side. Since I was running out of air I paniced and swam. THis bothered me since I did not know what happened. Later on I rolled up fine. Same thing happened again next weekend on the Nantahala. THe C Boater i was with suggested that I keep my eyes open to orient myself and this helped greatly. He also suggested that instead of going through the normal set up that I reach for the surface and do essentially a low brace. THis had been suggested to me before my a Skeeter paddlers, but it did not click in my mind.

Since I paddle on my left side, my underwater movement is to the right, then reach for the surface/rotate,then brace. If the water is turbulant and I need to stay tucked, I use the normal deck set up we all start with.

For me it is a matter of practice so that it is automatic. I will intentionally turnover in moving water and in play holes to simulate what I will need in an unexpected situation. It has to become a matter that you are going to roll up without question. In a pool just hang out and look around to get an idea of what is going on.

Earlier this year my son got upside down in Table Saw on the Ocoee and immediatlily rolled. I was so impressed. However, i remembered that he had been playing and practicing all Summer so it was just a natural movement.

As pointed out, practicing by deliberately turning over can only take you so far...you need the element of surprise. A couple of easy things to try:

Find a large eddy with a clear adjacent current/run-out. Starting far back in the eddy, point the bow in the general direction of the eddy line, kneel straight up, close your eyes, and paddle toward the eddy line. At some point you will flip. (This one from John Sweet..)

Practice aggressive cross-bow peel-outs etc. Decide you are going to commit full weight on your cross-bow & go as hard as you can. First, you will be surprised at how stable it is & how hard you can lean on your cross-bow without flipping, and then you will get roll practice. (Rolling is actually easy because you are already nearly set up.)

Gyrations in the pool:
Paddle (or brace) on your off side & flip (intentionally or not!) Change hands under water & then roll. ( If it's too much at first , flip without the paddle & then have a helper hand it to you, in various positions .) For the agile & long waisted: try "swimming" your boat. (It is sort of leaning out to the side & doing a kind of breast stroke) If you can do it, then swim to your paddle, set up & roll. Yet another stunt is hold the paddle with the shaft hand, flip, pass the paddle OVER the boat to the T-grip hand set up & roll.

All of these get away from the anticipated pre-set roll. And no, I can't do them all myself, either...too short & squatty...;-}

All good advice. I've encountered the opposite problem. About two years ago I had increasing problems with my roll. Usually I was just rolling to cool off, while paddling my Zealot on an easy practice course. I tried rolling in my old Phoenix, and got up, but the mechanics were terrible.

So I threw money at the problem, and got a qualified NOC instructor to try to help me. We practiced on the lake, and worked on all the mechanics, but I just could not quite get the Zealot up. The instructor and I were agreed about what I was doing wrong--- I was staying too extended off the side of the boat, pushing with the paddle, when I needed to reel my body in on top of the boat like a runaway windowshade. But I could not roll on the lake.

So we said, to hades with it, lets go to the river and just practice some stuff. We were surfing and doing screaming eddy turns, and he pointed me at a particular river feature. I flipped--- and quickly rolled without a hitch. Since then, my philosophy is, don't practice when practice doesn't work, just stay on rivers safe enough for 60 year olds, and the roll will probably work automatically when it is needed.

Another comment. While there are many things about rivers that can make it HARDER to roll than in a pool or on a lake, there are also things that make it EASIER. In particular, when you flip, often the current will pull your body and blade around to the downstream side, and that same current will provide extra support when you roll up. Sit around Lesser Wesser some afternoon and watch all the TERRIBLE roll mechanics, and you will see how the fast current helps some paddlers get back up who deserve to stay down.

A final point from a psychologist. There is a well-established phenomenon called REACTIVE INHIBITION which builds up if you practice your roll over and over again. This RI interferes with your attempts to roll competently. If you quit while you're ahead, you may find that the next time you practice, your initial attempts are better than anything you did in the previous practice session. This is due to removal of reactive inhibition with the passage of time. It is also why "distributed" practice is better for learning than "massed" practice. Do some rolls, take a break, do some more, take a break. Don't keep practicing when you sense you are doing worse rather than better.

Great rolling ideas. Like someone told my son relating to hitting a baseball. Practice does not make perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect.

As for being a 60 year old boater. I think that is very nice to be 60 and still paddling. Better yet to be 70. I am 48 and hope to be at it for sometime.

Regards

Good points. Maybe the worst thing you can do is constantly practice over & over set-tuck-roll because that's NOT what you do when you flip in WW. What happens is, if you aren't already set up when you go over, you CAN'T roll because your body doesn't know what to do..

The other thing I think is, the really good guys don't do "any" specific roll. They flip, they find the surface, they think "UP", the body follows through & they roll., no matter what position they flipped over in. T he key is the hip flip/head-down body action.

I remember somebody describing rolling a C-2 with Dick Bridge as "like being attached to a machine". Those old-timers who learned to roll when boats were huge & getting up at all was an achievement had body action like you can't believe. Add a long paddle & it was like being on a catapult.

First, I'll just say that what is already posted here is all excellent information and advice. Therefore, the only thing I'll say to you that may differ is...get on the river with the REALLY cold water (have a partner with you) and practice out there. Try it in moving current. Try it in class 3 rapids when you are dressed way too light (like I was today). See if you can keep your hair dry on an unintentional flip to your onside .

I did just this today at my favorite local spot (Pony Pasture). I dressed in a shorty top with a light-weight polypro short-sleeve shirt on and the water temp was a slightly nippy 50 degrees (I say "slightly" as to not offend our canoeing Canadian cousins ). I quickly paddled up to a really nice surf wave, carved across it a few times, then the nose pearled in causing water to shoot up the bow, across the skirt, and jetted STRAIGHT UP inside my shorty top ! Oh, man! That water hit my chest and sloshed right over to my back and down the back of the skirt tunnel! You should have HEARD my scream of pain and shock !

Anyways, while I was climbing up a rapid, I tipped over to my onside requiring me to throw down the fastest bomb-proof low brace mankind has ever seen, and when that didn't stop the turning over, I did the ultimate sacrifice--I dipped my face and head into the water so as to right the boat back up before I went all the way over. The result, a cold wet face and left arm and my whole right side and arm were completely dry . Cold water is a great incentive to get your paddling and rolling techniques tuned in...real fast!

Good luck, (O)C

KNeal

The guys who helped me learn offered the following:
1-It only gets worse if you swim.
2-You get air quicker by rolling than by swimming.
3-When you know you're going to flip, go ahead & set up. I'm usually set up before my head hits the water. This motion also speeds the rotation of the boat, so you carry momentum into the roll rather than creating momentum after you begin from a dead stop.
4-Practice dipping the top of your head into the water on your on-side & recovering with a low brace.

The thing that helped my roll the most was loosing a freind. I broke the events down & if he had made his roll he would not have died that day.

Mike W.

Howdy - these are great suggestions and I used several of these techniques myself and continue to use them when I teach others. One's I particularly like:

Don't flip already in your set up position flip from some strange position, setup upside down and roll (trying to cartwheel tends to result in this frequently )

Paddle forward as fast as you can and then flip yourself while still paddling - the best "moving water" simulation you can do in a pool.

Pass the paddle across the bottom of your boat and then roll. Even better, really work on your offside roll - this tends to make you nail your onside roll as you'll need it when you miss your offside and also gets you used to spending time upside down.

I also agree with finding somewhere with a safe run out and practising flipping in the current. Warm or cold, it'll be great practise.

Playboating is great for this - you're always flipping. And this doesn't mean you have to go find the ultimate wave - learning to stren squirt will get you lots of practise. I'd also suggest practising on a wave before a hole as flipping on a wave tends to be less disorienting (I think).

Nose plugs rock! (though most of the times I've taken a good hole thrashing they blow off, but at that point I don;t really care as I'm somewhat occupied worrying about other things )

Practising in cold flatwater makes a lot of sense - but be sure to call it quits before you completely freeze and remember that muscles, etc. are more prone to damage when they're cold.

Lastly - I agree with Mike. Sometimes it's better to just go with the roll. There are places where you just don't want to flip so you'll do everything you can to hold that brace, but most of the time you're better off to tuck and go with the roll rather than holding onto a long brace and getting dragged back onto your back deck before you flip, exposing your face to the rocks. Friends of mine have learnt this the hard way. The other benefit of going with the roll when it is a definite happening is that you can use the momenton of the flip (when you flip offside) to drive the boat around and continue straight into the roll - makes the roll a lot easier (I call it the momentum roll and I use it frequently in the open boat)

Keep the tips coming folks - these are great!

Matt

Your are right that it is usually better to roll fast! In fact, the interesting thing about rolling C-boats is that usually you do not flip to your on-side..much more often it is the off-side, and espcially offside-upstream. But those offside flips are the easiest roll: often you can set even before you hit & then you have the mo going, too. Whereas rolling off a low brace actually takes more time to get organized if you have to go the whole route (as opposed to a REALLY deep brace).

As for cold water..one of my strongest C-2 partners always insisted on a roll as soon as we were in the boat -- even in January with snow on the banks. It is amazing how relaxed you become. Once you have hit the water & rolled, you just relax & go for the biggest verticals without worrying.

My combat roll has been improving by great strides in the last year. I feel I owe this to three things.

1. playboating - you never know which way you will fall over so you are always in some weird starting position. This has me progressing across the spectrum from going through the routine of setting up then rolling to just 'feeling it' and automatically rolling.

2. I alway roll as soon as I put on the river if it is safe to do so. This mentally prepares you for what's ahead. It reminds you that you have a roll and it works. It tells you how cold the water is so its not a surprise later. It impresses your friends when its 30 F outside and you have a smile on your face when you roll up because you know you have enough layers under your dry top.

3. A beach session with 6' close-out waves with a very short wave period in a 6' playboat. I probably had 20 rolls in an hour. All very chaotic and most definately combat. I still have sand in my ears / orifices (orifii?) It taught me to be patient. In fact I think some of my best surfs of the day were probably upside down. Tuck, chill and wait for it to pass. It will also teach you how to punch really big holes on the river.

I had two combat rolls last Saturday that were very fast, like immediate. One was at an eddy line where I attempted to catch an offside eddy before actually being there, I am sure nobody has ahd this happen before except me. THe other roll was at the bottom of a long rapid again at a very strong eddy line. Both rolls were on my offside and I had some very good momentum.

What I felt underneath the boat was the paddle slicing very fast without any set up and then the hip snap. I think the first situation was quick because of the consequences if I waited. THe second happen fast because of something that had clicked in my mind from the first roll.

I thought this might help someone else who is thinking too much about the set up. If you turn over on your on side use the low brace idea. On your off side, go with the momentum aggressivily, reach for the surface and snap