what class/grade is "serious"?

[yarnellboat]

Recently I saw a trip described as "an intermediate trip" that included Class III and IV rapids. The definitions of the universal classification system aside, how many "intermediates," open boats in particular, spend much time on CIII water, never mind CIV?

Most people I know who paddle open boats on what I consider to be Class III runs have many, many years of canoeing under their belts. Though I know it's done, I don't really know anybody who runs CIV rivers in open boats. An exception might be a canyon on the Adams R which is a safe, deep, clean, short flush once you swim - and there would like be debate over whether it gets clasified CIV, because it doesn't require much manouveing per se - I have seen intermediates run that, but not continuous CIII-CIV rivers. Do I just know lame paddlers?

Is the number of people here that seems to paddle CIII and CIV rapids due to the number of C-1ers, or is my interpretation of CIII water just cranked up higher than average? Maybe it'sbecause the BC rivers are steep and cold?

I find there's a big jump from CII+ to CIII rapids for "intermediates." Do other open-boaters disagree that CIII rivers are fairly advanced/hairy?

Aspiring to be comfortable on CIII rivers, P.

[chuck naill]

Open boaters run class 4's here in Tennessee, but I do not think all class fours are equal.

I think there is a differance in being an inexperianced paddler and being someone who is otherwise experianced, but just new to a particular rapid.

I also wonder if reading water is still being taught or if people are just taking the known lines. I thnk the key to runnning more difficult water is having good river running skills.

Lastly, I think that the type of boat we paddle makes a big differance in the difficulty of the rapid.

[TommyC1]

There's plenty of OC paddlers on class IV here in New England.
I expect most of them consider themselves intermediate paddlers.
OTOH I consider myself an intermediate and I find class III plenty challenging.
There's a broad range of skill within intermediate. There's also a broad range of difficulty within any of the five river rating classes.
Some folks have the talent and desire to get on the hard stuff early in their paddling careers. Others like me have been slowly building skills for years. Which is better? Dunno. Anybody got a funometer we can find out with?

Tommy

[MotorCityOC-1]

Class III/IV seems to be the operational definition of an intermediate trip in the clubs I belong to. That is a definite step up from the definition implied in many of the guidebooks still in use today. Solid class IV is another matter.

There are plenty of open boaters in the Southeast who regularly run class IV and V rapids, and although some of them are elite paddlers, I don't think that paddling even easy class V in a canoe qualifies you as "elite" anymore. Part of that must be because , as the last guy said, the lines are known. Also because there is more river traffic than ever, more boaters (of all stripes) have seen somebody blow their line on a rapid that's supposed to have rather dire consequences, and flush out the bottom in one piece. I think that gives some people the false confidence to boat over their heads, and for most of those people their luck holds.


Having said that, I didn't see very many open boaters besides myself on the class III/IV stuff that I ran last year, but I think that's because there are just that many more kayakers than canoeists- and that the ratio is the same on class II/III runs.

I get the feeling that back in the day, when a OC-1er had a bomber roll, he/she was likely at least a semi-badass. Has this given rise to the notion that rolling an open boat is somehow harder or scarier than rolling a kayak? Do people who want to boat, but are scared of or otherwise unwilling to roll gravitate towards open boating, because of the easy-exit factor?

It's appalling to me the number of otherwise competant open boaters who don't have a roll and don't care to learn. Some have boats that aren't even equipped to roll! Seems like most kayakers these days start out in the pool, working on their roll as a fundemental part of their basic skills. If a begginer doesn't have a roll, it's almost taken for granted that they are working on it, and will have a roll before they move on to more difficult water. Cutting open boaters slack on learning how to roll isn't gunna do them any good.

I say this because while I don't mind too much occasionally having to roll in a class IV rapid, I am dreading my first epic swim in class IV water (I know it'll happen sooner or later)! If for me: flip = swim you'd never see me on class IV, ever. Maybee you've got some of that going on in BC.

BTW, I could live with any boater who's solid on class III, very challenged on III+, and never run a class IV calling themselves an intermediate, provided they have all the other skills they need to be a good boater. I'd hate for the perception of what a competent canoeist is to be different or "less" than what a competent kayaker is. It's much more usefull to say so-and-so is solid on class X , has done okay on a few Y 's, and should really think about walking Z .

My $0.02,
Kevin

[sbroam]

For kayakers, if they take a class, rolling is at least touched on in their first class. It is considered a basic skill. The next thing they learn is how to cartwheel. Considerably later they start to think about reading water and eddy turns. But I wax cynical.

Canoeists rarely start with a roll and some never get it - be careful about blanket statements about rolling and level of ability, though. I'm pretty sure that Psycho Dave Simpson either did not roll for a long time or has some aversion to it; I'm also pretty sure that the late great Franky Hubbard hated to have his head underwater and very rarely rolled either. Not that these guys swam often, but when they did flip, they swam. "Swim" meaning aggressive self rescue - another boater I know who ran with those big dogs could wet exit and remount faster than I could make two failing roll attempts... And these guys were pioneering the really steep stuff...

But yeah, not that I get out much, it does seem that there are fewer open boats these days on the harder stuff (IV and up). You see a bunch on the Nantahala for instance (maybe 10-15% of the boats? maybe I'm looking for OC-1s), but on the Ocoee it is skewed even further towards the K-1s (maybe 1-2% canoes?)

[chuck naill]

I agree with Mr sbroam about blanket statements re rolling. I started in Blue Hole Sunburst in 85 and nobody except Nolan Whitewell was rolling consistantly. Because we learned how to read water, we were less likely to swim, but if we did we could self rescue buy getting back into the boat from the side. I think the self rescue while holding on to your gear was a necessity and very costly if you lost you gear on some creek. During that time I remember combat rolling one time at Diamond Spilter of the Ocoee. I was still full of water and a full boat ain't no fun much less controllable. That's about the time I got the Gyromax.

There is something said or implied about the open boater and why they are drawn to it's challange. I remember that not many canoes were on the Ocoee during that time and it meant something to me to be able to navigate those waters. I also remember the first time taking the Blue Hole over Baby Falls.

I paddled with a friend last year who like to say that he did not know how he was going to run the rapid until he get there. I ilke that.

[bathtuboy]

Paddling open boats seems to accentuate the differences between rivers of the same grades. This is particularly noticeable on continuous rivers as an open boat full of water is not great at hitting eddies.
Paddling in the UK and europe I have never met another open boater on any of the more serious rivers I have undertaken. I would definately agree with the idea that a lot of open boaters settle into a comfort zone at the lower grades and don't seem to push themselves.
I would consider myself an intermediate paddler and am generally happy on grade IV and have even paddled the odd pool drop grade V, but that is on generally small volume rivers and I often opt out of paddling continuous IV+.
I'm travelling to BC in August, and am looking forward to seeing how the grades compare and I cope. It would be excellent if I could meet up with any other open boaters.

Jon

[Judd]

One big difference between an open boat roll and a kayak/c1 roll, is that an OC roll doesn't completely rescue you. You still are full of water, and need to catch an eddy to empty out. When people are learning to roll, they can't snap the boat up very quickly, and end up with even more water in the boat.

Although it doesn't help a beginner OC boater in the long run, I can understand that some of them are just as happy to swim to the eddy as they are try to roll and paddle a full boat to an eddy.

Judd

[yarnellboat]

Hmmm,

Roll or not, I know many paddlers, all with excellent river-reading skills (most from wilderness tripping backgrounds), who I consider to be well beyond "intermediate" - they've been paddling hard, and even instructing moving water, for 20 years - but I don't know many who paddle CIV.

Presumably its either the runs that are available here, or the paddling community that I'm connected with is the open-boaters who have chosen not push their limits to CIII and up. Perhaps it's the difference between backgrounds/mentalities in tripping vs. playboating, or east vs. west, north vs. south?

In my mind, if I'm paddling CIV with somebody, I'd want to be able to rely on them as an advanced paddler or expert. It just doesn't sound right to me that "intermediates" run that stuff.

To me, "intermediate" implies "I've been doing this for a few years, I'm working on it, I have good strokes and I'm compotent with the basics (up to CII+ or even CIII, depending on the run and the group)," but CIV and up implies "you better be an advanced paddler who knows for sure what you'll make or not make." Then beyond that there's the elites who are commited to pushing all limits.

If "intermediates" paddle CIV, that doesn't leave much room to distinguish between advanced, expert and elite paddlers. To me, it seems risky suggesting that intermediates normally run CIII and CIV.

In my opinion, if you're running CIV, you're more skilled and more commited than an average weekend warrior, making you "advanced" not "intermediate."

P.

[chuck naill]

Mr Yarnell,
I think weekend warriors is more appropriate to golfers than paddlers since most of us have jobs.-----just joking!!

Just some thoughts, and great post by theway.

What allows most of us to run any river is being with safety conscious friends and club members. It's everybodies job to be prepared and knowledgeable. I seen some boaters get a little funny about what they have experianced and who should be paddling what. While I agree to some extent, when you are first starting out, its hard to get accomplished boaters to deviate their schedules to help someone new. Therefore, we sometimes get in over our heads.

From what you have said, it is obvious that the class 4 rapids in your areas are differant from mine. Having said that, continuous rivers, as previously said, presents the open boater with a challange over a decked boat.

I have a paddling buddy that I have known 20 years. He knows every rapid like the back of his hand. However, his passion is helping others have a good experiance and should get the highest safety award possible. Because of this, he is much admired and beloved. It is my ambition to follow this man's example.

Regards,
Chuck

[Steward R]

I agree with many of the statements above, but in my experience it is the type of river that dictates if an OC1 will walk or run.
I've seen many OC1's paddle class IV's on the Ottawa and Gatineau Rivers. Big Pool and Drop rivers like the Ottawa give an intermediate the ability to test themselves on a rapid above their skill level with little consequence. For those who know the Ottawa, many people including myself have swam through Phil's Hole on McCoys rapid. If this was a continuous class IV, I do not believe you would see many OC1's.

I'm concern with associating a persons skill level to rapid classification. I've run many long class III's I would consider more difficult then some of the class IV's I've been on because of the skills required to successfully navigate. Yes the consequences are less, but high risk does not necessarily require high skill if the lines are there.

I'm not sure what the solution for a skills system is, but linking it to a flawed river rating system where everyone has their own idea of a class doesn't seem like a great idea.

[bathtuboy]

The competence of ones fellow paddlers is so important when pushing ability to it's limit. When I started paddling grade III and above a couple of years ago I was lucky enough to be with a group of kayakers who were sympathetic and curious to having an open boater tag along. Although my friends are all kayakers they have got to know my strengths and weaknesses just as I have theirs.

We are a university group and as such usually cater for beginners and intermediates. Being based in London we do not get to paddle as often as we would like (the closest white water is 5 hours drive away). However we would see it normal to progress paddlers onto grade III and grade IV quite quickly. We do have a core of competent paddlers who are happy leading relative novices down this grade of water, and our safety record is pretty good.

My point here is that I would expect many kayakers move on this quickly. There is the obvious problem that a lot of these less experienced paddlers are having decisions made for them on the river, but as long as it is done in a controlled way this is an excellent method of learning. Although I would say open boating requires more skill at these grades, it is not that different.

I reserve the right to change my opinions entirely after paddling in BC this summer.

Jon

[Martyn]

I've probably only thought of this as I'm spending more time wrapping my brain around climbing right now than I am boating but I think its fair to say that leading III/IV is a lot harder than following on III/IV.

I'm pretty comfortable on III/IV rivers I know with intermediate paddlers. I know that for me one of the things that is taking the longest is learning to read water, but if you know what the line is and can describe it to someone, they are probably OK to paddle it, whether they know why they should go there or not.

I would be a lot less comfortable with intermediate paddlers on II/IV rivers I don't know. Then river reading is much more important and there are sometimes nasty surprises.

I also have an open boat bias. I think you probably need to be an intermediate open boater to handle III/IV. With the right safety and someone looking out for them, I think beginner kayakers can handle III and easy IV's I suspect the same would hold true for beginning C1 paddlers. I think river reading is more important to an OC1 paddler on III/IV than it is to a decked boater. So long as the decked boater doesn't get stuck in a hole, they should bounce through big waves (think Ottawa main channel) whereas an OC paddler at least has to have some concept of a dry line.

In my opinion, a roll is more important in a decked boat than open canoe as it takes a lot longer to get out of a decked boat. Similarly, in-water reentry is more important for OC paddlers (again, think Ottawa main channel above Horseshoe, or some of the wide, interminable northern rivers). Rolling an OC rodeo boat makes a lot of sense as they seem to come up drier than when they went over but rolling a tripping canoe looks neat but may not serve much of a useful purpose.

Martyn

[TommyC1]

"Perhaps it's the difference between backgrounds/mentalities in tripping vs. playboating"

Bingo.
I'll bet most folks here condider themselves playboaters and/or slalom boaters. Either way we're talking smaller more maneuverable boats and only enough gear to get through the day.

I know I'd be a lot more conservative with the weeks groceries and my bed in the boat.

Tommy

[yarnellboat]

Good discussion,

Jon, Let us know (perhaps here and on Paddling.net, or at one of the clubs (Beavers or Dogwoods) or at Yahoo group westcoast c-boater) when your in BC this summer and we'll try to get out on the Chilliwack.

Tommy, I was really referring to "mentality," most of the people I boat with were introduced to canoeing doing tandem camping trips, not playboating or gates. Even though we still run empty, outfitted for river-running, no extra gear, maybe we still run with a "tripping mentality." I just don't know many people who run CIV rapids here, including many of whom I consider to be more than "intermediates."

Good comments everyone, thanks. I think the biggest difference for why most paddlers/clubs I know of stick to II+, even the many-many-years-of-reading/running paddlers, is either because 1) the lack of local "OC champions" who push the limits - Chuck, wish I could ride your coat tails in TN and take advantage of that sharing - or 2) the difference between lower-volume, cold, continuous rivers and large-volume, warm, pool-and-drop spots.

I'll have to get out to the Ottawa with an appropriate support crew and try some CIV lines, that's the only way to compare!

P.