C-Forum

Here's one out of the bag for you... how many Atoms do you reckon Dagger sold, or put another way... what do you think the potential market is for a C1 play-boat (not rodeo specific, but a Disco style C1)?

I'm just poking around here, but...

Corran

(corran@2imagine.net)

Well, it looks like I get to be the first out of the gate on this subject: "what to c-boaters REALLY want in a c-boat?"

I will take a guess and say that we are looking for a playboating-type plastic jug--uhh, boat. I mean plastic boat . If you do a search for the different boats us cboat posters have discussed the most is a playboating-style c-1.

You asked about how many Atoms Dagger sold, and I guess that they sold quite a few, only because it was the most advanced, c-boat specific plastic boat on the market at that time. Since then, Robson brought out the Finkenmeister and that particular model has gotten a LOT of attention on this board. The plastic Groove proto-type stirred up a lot of interest on this board a couple of years ago, and that is MORE rodeo-specific.

Personally (remember that I get to use this moment to express MY opinions ), I have gone towards the squirt design. Just recently, I ran up to Ithaca, New York, paddled with a Kiwi (hi, NZMatt !), and drove back with a John Frachella-designed Viper c-1 and have been enjoying it since .

My suggestion is for you to reconsider the plastic Groove for our market. A river running playboat is a really good choice for a lot of us. Why, I might even get another plastic jug--errr, boat. I mean BOAT!--in the future.

Thanks for stopping by on this board and posting your question. I hope we give you a LOT of useful feedback.

KNeal (KNeal Fleenor)

Ha ha ha! I just previewed my post and it REALLY rambles!

I wasn't asking about WHAT to design ... i was wondering what the potential market is...

You can want anything you want, but if its to sell 20 boats, well...

Corran

My wife is getting quite impatient with me checking posts tonight, so I better stop here, Corran . But, that's just for tonight .

Since I already stated what I wanted, I'll type what I see in my crystal ball . The market is good to go for c-1 specific playboats. And that is to PURCHASE! A lot of posters here have been inquiring about what new designs are available for this year, and several models have gotten quite a bit of attention with quite a few posts about c-boaters who just purchased Robson's Finkenmeister. It looks to me that CBoat.net posters want new boats and have been accustomed to buying and outfitting kyacks. I predict that MANY c-boaters would purchase a plastic c-1 for playboating (like that plastic Groove someone prototyped 2 years ago ).

Keep checking back and see what else other cboaters have to say.

Now, what else do I want?

KNeal

P.S. Again, thanks for stepping away from the "dark side" long enough to give us a nod.

Corran-
To be honest with you, I am not sure what the market really is for a C-boat playboat/all around boat. The fact of the matter is that you would sell some, but you'd also be competing against every K-1 boat out there as well, since most of us are experienced converters. That said, I would surely give first conscideration to a C-1 specific design that suited my needs.... I've bought a new playboat every season for the last three years based on either quick conversions or breif demos as K1s. Off the shelf C1s would be awesome. I had a disco that was great, and I miss it as an all around boat. Currently I am paddling a Vibe, which is a great boat, but not the best river runner.... Its always a compromise.

The other barrier is that most of the C-1ers I see are in an all around river runners with little if any focus on playboat performance. That's a category that is pretty easily filled by cheaply available used boats, like the Atoms, Cascades, Xs, Zs, etc etc.

I'd be really interested in what you come up with, as would some other C1ers I am sure, but C1ers are a ficke and unpredictable lot when it comes to boat choices....


Tim

If people are happy to already convert K1 to C1, why would they buy a C1? Basically, the point is that ther are 20 K1 choices every year. Depending on your style of paddling, preferances etc, depends on which you get, and convert.

A C1 would be just that... "A" (one) C1. ALL C1 paddlers would want to have to have this boat in order to just break even or even consider a small profit (this is the point after all).

K1's range from 6' to 7' in the PLAY catagory. A C1 would have to appeal to both extremes.

So, what are the chronic disadvantages of all K1 conversions that one C1 would be so much better at that it'd overcome the huge size and style barrier offered by the 20 K1 options.

Obviously the first thoughts are stability (C1's are supposed to be wider), better volume distribution (no fotbumps and more volume in the centre because the paddelr kneeling won't feel swallowed up)... what are the other deficiencies of K1's (and remember, you can't talk about "style" - saying they're too long or short, or not bouncy enough, or carvy enough... thats specific to a particular K1 design, not K1's converted as a whole and a concept).

Are you having to pay "retail" for K1's now, rip out the guts, buy materials for C1 guts and put them in? In this case, cost is an issue... its costing C1ers more than K1ers, so there would be a possible savings... possible...

What else? What generic K1-C1 conversion issues would be solved by a specifi C1 design?

And back to the first question... sales...

A bad or radical K1 design will sell 500 units in its first year. A good one, or a geneic K1 butt bouncer will sell 2000 units. More than Hlaf of this is in the USA. What do you think the USA market is for a C1, and the world market in ONE YEAR (realistically... really...). I have a pretty good idea, but I want to check my numbers.

Over and out.

Corran

...I don't mind converting a K1. What I think would be great is if manufacturers would make this easier. Like Robosn: Sell those K1 without outfitting. (as an option). And than also make those stupid cockpits wider.

If fitting into a K1 as a C1 paddler is not an issue, I like the variety the K1 market has.

For example: I am quite happy witzh my Blunt as a creeker. It is a great boat and helped me a lot to improve my skills. The only pain is the narrow cockpit.

I am thinking of an Air 55 conversion now and fitting into it is my main concern...

Jan

"What do you think the USA market is for a C1, and the world market in ONE YEAR (realistically... really...). I have a pretty good idea, but I want to check my numbers."

I haven't got a clue what the USA market is, or the world market either. But, I personally would buy a plastic groove sight unseen. I don't know much about the Disco so can't comment on a "Disco type boat".

I, too, have no clue about the size of the C-1 market.

In my professional life, I own more chevy vans than anyone that I know - but this gives me no insight to the size of the US van market for chevrolets!

I can say that if there were a commercially produced C-1 playboat on the market, one that offered bombproof and adjustable factory outfitting installed in a comfortable cockpit, and a hull that was designed to be paddled the way I paddle - I would buy one.

Corran- Much as I'd like to think otherwise, I think the actual market is probably pretty small. As you and others have noted, there are 20 state of the art kayak designs every year, and most "ceists" interested in serious playboating are pretty good at converting. Where I think a legitimate market could exist is in a modern, high performance (possibly even rodeo specific) aftermarket pedestal. With this, you'd have not only a built in c1 capacity at Riot, but you'd also be able to get a share of those outfitting boats by other manufacturers. What I don't know is if even this would justify the design and production costs. Just my two cents.....Ed

I have no idea about actual numbers, I live in CA and there are very few c-boaters around here, ask dagger? I did buy an atom the minute they came out.

Converting the big pain. I would never buy a new kayak to convert, cost too much. I would, however, buy a new c-1 play boat in a second.

What we REALLY need is an outfitting system that would easily fit any boat. it should be fully, and easily adjustable. These would sell like crazy?
I also agree with Jan about the narrow cockpits.

Echoing sentiments from above - converting a new boat is expensive - I think mainly because you are paying for all that fancy kayak outfitting that makes it all comfy for a kayaker. Some of it is quite elaborate, but destined to be ripped out. I can only guess what portion of the cost of a boat that represents. And then, you have to outfit it C-1 style... Making boats available without the kayak outfitting and priced accordingly would a "good thing".

A flexible conversion system would be nice - not everyone is comfortable fabbing their outfitting from scratch. The Dagger and Perception saddles are "OK", but no longer in production. Maybe something with a higher back, some integrated hip pads, and a better way to attach the high end of the thigh straps (without drilling new holes).

Cockpits sized/shaped to be C-1 friendly would be good.

How big is the market? Tough one. With a good boat, you might attract some from the open boat "market" ot some that haven't bought a C-1 in a while (their Atom's are wearing out though).

And while we have your attention - who designed the Slasher? Was that you? What about that bulkhead saddle?

Scott

Hi Corran

Thanks for stopping by - definitely the right place to ask this question. I honestly don't believe the market for factory C1s is huge as, asnoted above, they would have to compete with all the kayaks out there in the used market. Converting is a pain though, so having a ready conversion system might be the best bet. I've heard of some folks buying your thigh straps and rigging them for C1 straps. A pedastal which is reasonably priced and can easily be fitted to various boats without having to redrill the hull (particularly in places that woudla ffect the performance) would certainly have a place, and the mold costs, etc. should be far less than for a full boat. If you can sell it for $US100-150 with everything included, then it's competitive with the cost of home made outfitting, especially once you factor in the time.

Another excellent option would be selling boats (even if only by special order) without the kayak outfitting - more than a bare hull, but less than a kayak.

As to what makes a good C1 - a cockpit that is wide enough to get into seems to be a big problem for many folks. I'm a skinny little runt, so it's not much issue for me. On the other hand, a cockpit which takes standard skirts would be a good idea as having to buy a new skirt for each boat kind of sucks - and ups the cost.

Myself, I'm not currently in the market - I picked up a squirt boat and a Groove last fall and that satisfies my C-boat urge for quite a while, as I'm quite happy with my plastic C1 playboat (Bliss Stick Blitz Special). Personal peeve - I'm no rodeo star, and although I love to surf and can be absolutely rabid on a good wave, I'm more into all around river running - I find many of the modern spud boats just too darned slow, although they do rock at a play spot. I also need to replace my open boat, and OC1 does remain my focus, so no new C1s for a while.

You asked what else would be key in a C1 - even volume distribution (since we don't need space for legs) and enough stern so that you don't back ender when you learn back slightly (due to the higher center of gravity).

It'd be cool to see more C1s out there, but I don't know if the market is there. There are also a couple of new companies starting up with some C1 specific designs - they've posted here previously.

Good luck and please let us know what you come up with.

I don't neccessarily think there is a huge market for a C-1 river runner/playboat. However, I do believe that there would be a market in an easily performed conversion similar to the Dagger pedestal but fits with newer "center rail" based outfitting. I think it would be cool to have a C-1 specific boat, but I can't see enough people buying them to justify it for the company producing them. I think though, of all the categories of boats, a boat more like an H3 or a river runner/creeker would sell the best. It seems a lot of Cboaters are more into river running than playing/creeking.
Will

by designing a less radical c-1 play boat you would be seriously cutting your market. c-1ers who already know how to play boat will be looking for a better, more radical, design. c-1ers who want to learn how to play will prolly not be able to tell the difference between a converted, and non converted boat. also a beginer can find a used boat to convert with similar characteristics to a manufactured c-1 (for example, a disco). the rest of the c-1 market prolly wont be to interested because they are either river runners, or race boaters.

i do think a good outfitting kit would be great. im sure you would sell many. a lot of kayakers turn their old boats into c-1s to learn in. that in its self would be a great market. being able to sell your boats a c-1 or k-1 would draw in a lot of c-boaters looking for more radical boats. if the kit was well desiged, and cost effective, im sure you could sell a lot to c-1ers in general. if i could get one, i know buy it.

thats my 2 cents
joey