C-Forum

Well I finally took the Finkenmeister out on the Ocoee this past Sunday, so here's my impressions. Some background on me: I'm around 5'11" and 240 lbs or so. I've been paddling oc-1 since around age six, on the ocoee since age 12 or so (Probably 200+ runs). I'm 26 now. I paddled a cascade off and on for a year or so when they first came out, other than that I've exclusively paddled oc-1. I am a solid class iv+ open boater, easing my way into some easier class v.

Trip Report:

I stuffed some old airbags into it and carried down the ramp to put in above Grumpy's. Setting in the pool below the ramp was my first time sitting in the boat in water. I immediately flipped, rolled and flipped again (not on purpose) before I had time to paddle around the eddy any. After the two rolls I was able to paddle around the eddy. Still I felt completely unbalanced. I've swam Grumpy's almost from the top in the past, but really didn't feel like paddling it in the fink, so I got out and carried back up the ramp to put in below Grumpys. Flipped and rolled once or twice heading down to staging eddy, still feeling very unstable. Played around and rolled several times at staging eddy, till one time I flipped and couldn't roll to save my life and finally swam. About my roll - it is near bombproof in my oc-1. My friend watching me though said it looked like I was "rolling too slow - too much like an oc-1 roll" and was almost all the way up.... Long story short - swim #1 - in the eddy no less

Got down through the entrance stuff to Broken Nose with a couple of rolls. Rolled in the middle of the rapid, dropped into the second ledge sideways and surfed out, ran the bottom ledge fine. Got through Slice and Dice without having to roll - the first rapid that's happened in! I flipped in the bottom of Moon Chute on river right, got the crap beat out of me several times, and rolled. I got up and kept going right on over again. This happened three times until I was worn out, so I swam (Swim #2).

I got through Double Suck upright. I rolled a couple of times in the in between stuff from Double SUck to Double Trouble, flipped in Double Trouble and blew a couple of rolls (exhausted by this time!) and finally swam again (Swim #3). Made it down to the doldrums upright. I took a nap in the doldrums while my partners played at flipper.

Flipped at the top of Table Saw and only tried one half-hearted roll before I swam (Still exhausted and elbow tendonitis starting to flare). Fun swim through Table Saw though. Self rescued (as I had on the other 3 swims) before diamond splitter. I ran the rest of the river right side up.

I think I doubled the total number of swims I had last year in one day on the ocoee in the fink. I've swam less on days when my brother and I were kids and we used to body surf tablesaw and double trouble for fun!

Now for my impressions:

Good: Extremely comfortable. The fink was at least as comfortable as my oc-1s. With the cascade (stock dagger pedestal with only a little tweaking) my ankles and feet were asleep within 15 - 20 minutes, and I was misreable by the end of the day. With the fink the only time I had any discomfort was after being in the boat for well over an hour, and I had slight numbness in one ankle and foot.

Bad: Stability. I think this may be related to the good point above. I have never been in a boat which was less stable to me. It may have some secondary stability (From looking at the hull you'd sure think it would) but I dern sure never found it. By the end of the day it was a little better though, and I'm hoping some more seat time will make it better. I think though that the saddle height may be the cause of some of my problems. I'm very hesitant to cut it down though - the comfort was that good. Another thing to keep in mind is that a cascade is probably the shortest boat I've ever been in, so part of this could be adjustment on my part...

Handling: I really couldn't tell you very much. I spent the majority of the day rolling or trying to get reoriented after rolling (or swimming). It seemed pretty quick and responsive, but I really couldn't tell you. For the most part I ended up where I meant to, but generally I was upside down when I got there...

I'm not ready to give up on the boat, but it will be a long adjustment period for me I fear. Too bad, I was looking forward to having a much easier load to carry down the stairs for Tallulah, but it looks like it will be a prophet getting carried down the stairs again!

Any questions or advice are welcome!
Peter

Hi Peter,

sounds like you will have a steep learning curvi sometime soon

I experienced something similar, though not quite as bad, when I went from oc into C1. I think it is mainly the balance you need to learn. A Cascade is really stable and almost impossible to flip, so are most OCs compared to most C1 conversions. (I know, the Finki is not a conversion but higher performance than a Cascade)

My first day in my Blunt on a 3+ river with pretty powerful water is still very vivid in my mind. On the first drop I rolled 4 times or so. I thought "Oh man, this can't be real, I need to get rid of the boat!" Now I love the boat and find it quite stable. Also, the performance of the boat helped me a lot and I paddle way harder and steeper rivers than I used to in my open boat.

So, I'm sure you'll love it in no time.

Cheers, Jan

Peter,
Thanks for the review. I admire your candor. It was an entertaining (I was laughing out loud ) and informative. My review on the Fink will be on the forum soon. I was also surprised at the poor primary stability, but found the secondary to be excellent. The boat needs some 'sit-in' time as you said.
I had alot of fun with your review simply because I identified so well with the stability issue.
SYOTR,
Bruce

Hi, Peter. Thanks for the trip/swim report on your Fink. My first impression from your experience on the Ocoee is that you are having difficulty simply because you stepped down from a "big rig hauler" meaning a larger, wider, longer, big volume open boat down to a very "sporty" model--the much skinnier and shorter Fink. That in and of itself is good enough to make you feel REALLY off-balance. I first paddled a Prijon Hurricane conversion after paddling OC exclusively for years (Blue Hole Sunburst) and I can tell you the first thing I developed was a bomb-proof roll because that was ALL I was doing in that thing. Eventually, I could paddle out of the eddy and down my usual rapids, but I remember how tippy that boat felt in the beginning.

How tall is the saddle? For the inexperienced, all taller saddle (greater than 7 inches) will make the boat tippier because of the higher center of gravity. Consider lowering the height if it is taller than 7 inches.

Looking forward to your next trip report.

KNeal

Hi Peter,

Thanks for youyr report, it was very entertaining !
I am surprised that you (as well as Bruce) found the boat so unstable. I found it had only a little less primary, but much more secondary stability than my Atom. I felt very confident in it and have run rapids in it last fall that I would think twice about running them in the Atom. Maybe wheight has something to do with it, as I wheigh about 185 lbs. Another reason could be that since I mainly paddled my Pyranha Prelude last year, which has virtually no primary stability to speak of, so I don't care or it. I actually find the FM very forgiving.
The saddle in the finkenmeister is very tall, 9 inches which works for me, so I did not bother to cut it down, so you should, unless you have bad joints, be able to cut it down by an inch or two, and I am sure that this would make a BIG difference in primary stability. Also, have you fitted the bot yet por are you loose in it? I was way too loose in it the first time out, which really hampered my roll. Since I tightened my fit, rolling it is not an issue any more.

martin

Peter,
Man, do i feel your pain. I went from open boats (vipers, class 4+) to an atom and it was the same for me. Up-side down all the time -spanked down a class . You will get somewhat used to it.
But wait , it's not all you! I paddled Bruce's Masterfinker on Sunday, just in some flat water, and will agree that the primary stability is suprisingly..........well, not a lot.
Have fun, Paddle hard.
Larry

So far I've only had time to take mine to a little class II spot and play around with ferrying, rolls, etc. I had the same initial impression with the primary stability as everyone else, but I did get the impression that it was something I could get used to pretty easily - I was in the boat for an hour and a half, and didn't really notice the tippiness after awhile. Also, I thought it had excellent secondary stability, making it really easy to lean pretty far to the off-side without going over. It certainly is much more stable than my Id 7.0 (which I could barely sit in w/o rolling at first, but eventually got comforable with in class III+ and easy IV).

The Finkenmeister seemed to track exceptionally well. It was quite fast for a boat it's size. Ferries were cake. It was also easy to turn - I was impressed by it's handling characteristics. And at 200 lbs, I could just put the very end of the stern edges under water when I leaned back hard, so I don't think they will catch in squirrly water.

The Finkenmeister feels completely different when rolling compared to any of my other boats (Id, Atom, Cascade, Fanatic). The other boats roll pretty smoothly until they are completely upright, while the Finkenmeister really slows down once it's about 2/3 of the way back up. I had to do a solid sweep to finish the roll. Also, I found it harder to get my center of gravity as low as I do in my Atom at the end of the roll, as the bow deck is much higher than the Atom's. Again, I think I can get used to this pretty quickly with some pool time.

Comfort-wise, it's tops. I really like the hip pads and bulkhead. The saddle is a touch high, but I'm going to leave it where it is for now.

I'm going to take it to a class III or IV run this weekend - I'll post my impressions next week.

Matt

Peter -

I made a similar transition to yours, I was in a big (Viper 12 - it sure seems big now) open boat and moved to a "real" C-1, a Slasher. That wasn't too bad.

However, your review sounds a lot like my first couple of hours in a *conversion* (a Perception Whiplash) - my first voyage was from just above Nantahala falls to just below, in which short trip I still managed to roll about 6 times. Ask Kalin, he was watching The next couple of hours I logged on my home river and while the frequency of rolling diminished, it took a while for me to get the hang of it. Part of the problem was the seat height. But, I did get the hang of it and every boat since has seemed luxuriously stable.

But then I had a similar day on the Ocoee about two years ago - that day I was in another conversion, a boat I had become quite comfortable in (a Score). The problem was that in addition to wearing one of those Lotus backpacks to hold a throw rope and hydration bag, I had put on about 15 pounds over above my normal girth. This threw off the whole boat volume/ seat height/ boat width equilibrium that normally had me feeling very stable. I hadn't rolled so many times or as sketchily in years...

All that to say two things -

1. give it some time, even though it is a "real" C-1, it's going to have different stability characteristics than your OC-1. Especially, if you are coming from a round hulled Prophet to the flat hulled FM

2. Us top heavy guys have to watch seat height, knee spread, etc. Time and outfitting can make a difference - my saddle height in my Score is just under 9" and it is minding it's manners again.

I really want to try one of those FMs out -

Scott

Scott -

You're more than welcome to try the fink out sometime. I live in Macon, GA, and unless it's rained I'll either be at the chattooga as long as its got water or the ocoee pretty much every weekend. I'll be at Tallulah the first two weekends in April in my oc-1, but could bring along the fink if you wanted to put it in the water somewhere.

I think the saddle height is too high for me, but I'm going to work on loosing some more weight and spending some time in it before I cut it down, I really don't want to sacrifice the comfort of the high saddle.

I noticed someone said something about the fink having excellent dynamic stability. I would have to agree that compared to sitting in a pool, the boat was much more stable under power and in moving water. It's just going to take some adjustment for me, but at least it will make the ocoee entertaining again for me this summer! I've spent a long time in big open boats - I'll figure this thing out eventually. I still giggle though everytime I think about the comments about this being a huge boat - at 26 I guess I'm hopelessly old school - this thing is tiny!

Peter

Peter,

Size is relative !

If you are used to paddle a 14ft open boat then the FM is tiny, however if you usually paddle a 6ft and 50 gallon spud boat, then the FM is HUGE!

If the saddle height really bothers you stability wise, dont hesitate, cut an inch off and try it out that way. If you don't like it, just glue the foam back onto the saddle. I do that all the time tomy boats. My saddles never look pretty, but they work for me!

martin

Peter,

What's the boat look like (color-wise). I'm sure sooner or later I'll spot you on the Ocoee or Chattooga this summer, just want to know what to keep an eye out for. I'd love to check out the boat, so if you see someone flailing in a converted black SuperEZ (upside down nearly as much as you described in your post), paddle on over.

Chris

Chris -
The boat is yellow with blue swirls. You're welcome to try it out sometime! I think I paddled the tellico with you a year or two ago - we were both in cascades? Yours finished the day intact - mine didn't!

Peter

Hahah Absolutely I remember. Nothing like grabbing a boat out of an eddy and seeing daylight through the bottom...

Chris