C-Forum

Are painters totally old school now? Now that many open boats are as small as the average kayak 10 yrs ago, what is the rational for putting painters on the bow and stern. Kayaks don't have 'em!

I've only ever used mine for lowering the boat down a cliff band or steep hillside- and to tie the boat to my truck. To my mind, those are good enough reason right there- but do painters scream "I need to be rescued a lot!?"

So, do you or don't you have painters on your OC-1, and why or why not?

Had them when I first started paddling but never used them. I have grab loops installed and I found myself just grabbing those when I was playing "swim to the eddy". I've since taken them off.

Never had them myself, but they sure could have come in handy a couple of times--especially when running a new river that requires getting out to scout frequently combined with steep banks. (Learned this the hard way on the Tellico a couple years ago when my boat apparently got tired of waiting and decided to slide back into the water and run the rapid without me... ) -Kevin

With a good bungee system my painters are kept out of my way when I don't need 'em. But, it's nice to know they are there if I ever need to tie the boat or line something. There real purpose in my mind is so that you can grab a painter and swim aggressively, and then haul your boat, rather than trying to swim while holding a grab loop or gunwale. Recently I also used my painter as a mini throw rope to somebody floating by the eddy after an aborted canoe-over-canoe rescue.

P.

I think short painters are, except for tying it to shore, fairly useless, since dragging the boat behind you while still swimming really slows you down.
For self rescue when swimming I used , back when I lived in Switzerland, where most rivers are fairly low volume and narrow, but pretty steep and with continuous rapids, a big throw bag with a 100ft rope with one end attached to the boat and the bag secured on the back deck with a bungee. In case of a swim you grab the throw bag, pull it out from underneath the bungee and swim aggressively for shore while the boat floats downriver and the rope starts to uncoil from the bag. It is like swimming without the boat.Once you have solid footing on shore, brace yourself and swing the boat in to shore. This worked really well on the rivers I paddled there. Short painters would most likely have been close to uiseless.

martin

I use 17-foot long, strong painters all the time. My boat is 14 feet long but I still use them when I paddle my 12 foot long boat.

When scouting I don't have to drag the boat up onto rocks. I just tie to a tree.

At the take-out I tie the two together, walk to the end of the ropes then pull the boat up. It's a lot easier than dragging the boat while climbing up a steep hill.

In case of a pin it's a whole lot easier and much quicker to work with two shorter strong ropes than one long throw bag rope.

One of my favorite uses is: while swimming I hold one end of a painter and look for a boulder in the river. I try to push the canoe to one side of the boulder while I go to the other side. The canoe and I then meet in the eddy below the boulder where I climb onto the boulder, empty my canoe then proceed downstream.

The only time that I don't use my painters is when I'm paddling a local river that I never worry about swimming.

On a day when there was a glaze of ice on everything I had an ugly swim on Connecticut’s Natchaug River, and eventually eddied out behind a boulder in the middle of the river. Jim (from the previous post) eddied out and could stand but not move around on shore because of the ice. I watched him (while standing in the river with a torn dry-suit leg) grab his painter and wrap it around a tree for support (he held on like a commuter standing on a train or a bus). That way he and his boat were secure, while he used his other hand to drop a throw-rope in my lap. He pendulumed me in to shore and off we went.

It helps to have someone like Jim Michaud around.

Jim

Paddling my prelude, I have never found any need for painters. A bagged out open boat is generally very light after a swim, and I find the easiest method is to push it into an eddy. I also find the use of a painter to tie a boat to a tree whilst hogging an eddy can be rather selfish, especially when the river is busy or you are paddling in a large group. If i need a painter to pull the boat up a bank i will just use my throw line.

I have them on my open boats. I don't use them much but I figure it's better to have than to need.

Yesterday, on the Upper Yough, there was need for a bit of throw bag work. I was able to hit a small eddy behind a rock in the middle of a pretty beefy rapid. I needed both hands to latch onto and climb up the rock so I fished out my bow painter with my T-grip, tied a bowline at the end of it and pass my arm through the loop. I was then able to lunge for the rock and climb up on it. I was able to use both hands to handle the throw rope because I prevented my canoe from floating away by standing on the painter.

It's going to take an awful lot of convincing to talk me out of using painters on significant rivers.

Just read the accounts of a 1km IV-IV+ kayaker swim on the Kicking Horse River in the Rockies - comments from the swimmer and rescuers included that adding knotted rope or webbing to grab loops is a good idea, because if you've got hold of a grab loop and the boat rotates, you're forced to change/your grip or bust your fingers, and may lose your contact to the boat. I think that's a good point, and having my painters along has never troubled me.

P.

A knotted rope dangling from your boat presents a very bad hazard. Knot gets trapped between two rocks...

I just attended a two-day Swift Water Rescue course with Charlie Walbridge and asked him about painters. Charlie hates them, won't have them on a boat and recommends others don't either. He reads too many accident reports where boater and painter are entangled.

On a trip where lineing or tracking are possiblities, a pair of bridles would give you greater boat control than painters.

Good point on the knotted rope Heidi, I had the same thought about it getting caught up, but I'm assuming they add a very short piece of rope/webbing just to combat the problem of rotating grab loops.

As far as entanglement in painters, I agree it's an issue if you just tuck them in your bag/ropes, but with a good bungee system on the deck plate, my painters have never come free during a swim unless I pull them out to use them.

P.

I'm glad Motorcity OC-1 raised this question, it has very important safety implications. I'm still mulling it over, imagining scenarios, like what it would be like to be dragged through the rapids with a boat-line wrapped around your throat (a real incident, fortunately not fatal just very unpleasant).

When I read Jim Michaud's response I was ready to go from a 6' painter to something longer for my 12' boat. I really like the idea of slipping into an eddy to empty-out and hey, if long painters work for one of the most respected boaters I know of then...

I also have great respect for Charlie Walbridge's years of paddling and rescue experience; and the fact that he reads all the accident reports that funnel through AW is very compelling. Though I wouldn't want to speak for Charlie, I can tell you he feels very strongly that painters pose an unneccessary danger and he wishes people would stop using them; he also respectfully stated that he wouldn't tell Jim how to boat.

When the point was raised that it's easier to swim with the boat extended some distance he still held that grab loops should be sufficient and if it's too hard to hold on to the boat, then maybe you need to get away from it. It's a floating tank, potential body masher if you can't control it.

The first concern is to swim to safety, gear is secondary. I like Martin's idea of the deployed throw rope and other than other swimmer/boat entanglement I can't think of any glaring safety concerns as long as it's not attached to the body, though 100' is not a common length.

As for throwing the painter or a throw bag to a passing swimmer from an *unanchored* position, Charlie's response again was adamant, that it is not a good idea to throw a line from an unanchored position, as it raises the potential for two swimmers and the loss of a potential rescuer.

Charlie also combines lengths of webbing with locking biners to effect; boat unpinning, anchoring, tow assists...it's in his book but the SWR course is hands-on training. Now that I've been through it one round, with a desire to repeat it a few times more, I rate it as important as is having a boat.

It's hard to break with old practices but a reality dose of Charlie's recounts and the passion with which he addresses the issues are nothing to take lightly. When I said he hates them (painters on WW boats) that's his choice of words.

Safe boatin' ~Heidi

Having painters on my boat saved my life this spring.
We were running the Elora Gorge at 98 cms, twice what our previous max level.
Got dumped and stuck in an "eddy of doom" which fed back into a terminal hole. The eddy was formed by a smooth 60 foot high limestone cliff with huge ice falls running down the face. The current in the eddy was so strong that I couldn't let go of the wall and try to get back in the boat, without getting washed into the hole.
I was able to crawl along the cliff face while in the water. Took me 10 minutes in 0' C water to move 20 yards. When I got to the point where the cliff and current met, the cliff face had no more holds and the boils that were forming made it impossible to swim out.
I had to flip my boat over, fill it with water, grab the painter, and push the laden boat into the current.
With the weight of the boat in the current I was able to swim/be dragged through the boil and around the cliff face.
Without the painter, I would have never been able to get the boat into the downstream current.
BTW, my paddling buddies were unable to scale the cliff with throw bags to effect a rescue.
Tucked into the airbags, they don't take up much room or add weight to the boat.