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What to do with a VERY soft glass boat?

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:45 am
by Mike W.
I picked up my new to me wildwater boat. It was built in '75 & is VERY soft :o . The seams need work so I'm thinking of cutting it at the seam, adding a couple of layers of glass inside both deck & hull, then re-seaming. Would this sufficiently stiffen the boat or am I nuts?

If I do cut the boat, what do I do about the original end-pours? The one in the stern is shallow & I can't tell if there is one in the bow. I assume that I would need to do something with the original in order to get the boat to seal & add strength.

Is an old soft boat worth this kind of work?

can't help myself

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:12 am
by MotorCityOC-1
Mike,

If you're anything like me, the mere thought of a new (to me) boat is enough to cause sufficient stiffening!

K

It depends...

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:46 pm
by Sir Adam
My Ace III is also very soft, as it was a "potato chip race boat" and was not meant to last this long :o . You can push in the deck easily in many spots-THIS IS OK. I have foam braces (one vertical, one horizontal) that keeps the hull in the right shape and the deck expanded. The name of the game in WW racing (from my limited experience) is to keep the boat as LIGHT as possible...at the Nationals folks were sanding off parts of the boat and trimming out things they considered "excess" just to save less than 1 kg.

So....I'd reseam it if it really needs it and put tape or a very thin patch over any holes...if you want to keep it a "vintage" racer. If you really want to beat on the thing it DOES make sense to either add layers (I'd personally do it without cutting the boat in half...but mostly because I've done that before 8) ), or keep that one as-is and look for a newer, stiffer one in more of a training layup.

Have fun regardless! The speed IS amazing....especially the speed at which you'll flip the first few times :lol:

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:38 pm
by Guest
The seams need "work?" Does that mean they leak a bit or have they "blown" along the length?

When you say "soft", do you mean the laminate has deteriorated to the point of being easily fractured by mild impact or when hand pressure is applied? Or are you talking about a "flexibility" due to a thin layup?

Patch blown seams from the outside only (unless accessible from the cockpit area.) Cutting and reseaming is a lousy idea. Alignment (and some hull deformation) will be a considerable problem. While a stiff seam line might reduce hull flex a bit, it will also establish stress risers along the entire length of the failing hull and deck laminates, too. That means more fracturing, impact damage, and leaking.

Thickness is what adds stiffness to a laminate. It also adds weight. Reseam on the outside just to make the boat dry. (Duct tape works, too. On an ancient glass boat, that is often the best alternative. Depends a lot on how much time the boat has spent outside in the sun or on the water.)

If the hull and deck are "soft" because of old age (very likely), minimize the work and expense of trying to "restore" the boat. You just can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Enjoy the boat for another season (or maybe two) by keeping it as dry as possible with tape and some patch work...and keep it away from the rocks!

If you have the time, place, tools, and skills to cut and reseam an aged ww boat, why not just build yourself a new one?

Use the less expensive materials if this is your first or second attempt at building. Try and get an experienced builder to help with the layup of hull and deck (the mold owner may insist, if not assist, on you doing this.)

Good luck!

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:44 pm
by Guest
Geez, I just reread your post after submitting the above response. You intend to add a couple of layers of material to the entire inside of the seperated deck and hull?

IMHO, you are nuts! A hull and deck are too flexible when separated (and not in the mold) to get satisfactory results.

You might as well build a new boat. If getting a mold is a problem, consider doing a one off from you present boat, although the poor condition of the "plug" will need to be remedied.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:52 pm
by Guest
Sorry, I meant to say that the idea sounds nuts to me.

I did not mean to comment on you personally. I regret my unintended mistyping.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:02 pm
by Mike W.
So I'm nuts. OK, no sweat. I thought that I might be, but guest confirmed it. Cool 8)

MotorCity, I'm with ya :P

The seams are still bonded to hull & deck, except for the spot near the bow where the deck is dented (yes dented, not broken) & the seam tape has separated from the deck. The problem is that in several places the outside seam is split where the deck & hull meet. The inside seam is pretty wide & from what I can tell it looks not so horrible.

The deck is very flimsy (I'm scared to load it up-side-down) & I kind of thought that adding layers may change the shape & it not fit back on the hull.

I'm concerned that the thigh-strap anchors may pull chunks out of the hull when I try to roll. Maybe I'll add a layer or two in the cockpit area & make sure that my life jacket is on tightly :-?

What should I use for new walls?

Thanks for all of the help :D

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:04 pm
by Guest
If you don't mind the little dots of foam that flake off when using the stuff, blue foam insulation from the local building supply will work for a ww boat. Not nearly as nice as minicell or ethafoam to work with, but lots cheaper and more readily available. Liquid Nails will do as an adhesive for wall construction/assembly. Build the wall at least two inches thick, more if you want. Three inches is certainly enough.

Resin is good for installing the walls once you have them well fitted. Liquid Nails will work, too. It just won't let the walls slide in as well, that's all. Use bricks or sand bags to "clamp" the hull and deck to the walls until the adhesive has dried. Test the wall for stability. If needed, reinforce with small blocks of foam to make sure the wall will not slip and collapse. The wall needs to be solidly attached to the hull and deck.

If the little flakes are too much for your tastes, build the blue foam walls anyway and use them as patterns to avoid waste when cutting minicell.

Consider adding blue foam struts to support other areas of the flimsy deck. Build struts from the bottom of the center wall to the "quarter deck" if you want. (Think in terms of the old-style trestle bridges.)

If you have the old walls, check them for fit while they are in the boat. If OK, use them as a pattern for cutting the new walls. Try to adjust the fit before cutting and shaping the new walls. However, if you want to make new walls, I suspect the old ones are among the missing.

Without the old walls to use a pattern, you will have to make your own pattern. You can try the "high noon" method (light bulb above the suspended, rotated 90 degrees, boat. Trace the shadow cast on brown paper placed below.) This never worked well for me, so I like this method:

Use a carpenter's square, a roll of brown wrapping paper, and a steady-handed helper to hold things level, plumb, and still while you do a tracing of the hull and deck centerlines on a paper covered flat surface (floor) while guiding the square around the outside of the boat with the horizontal edge on the floor, and the vertical edge touching the boat. Your sharpie pen should be held next to the outside apex of the square.

Do you have a workshop big enough for a ww boat, or is this a living room project? (Remember that glasswork needs sixty degrees or more to go anywhere near right.) Sanding glass laminates is outside work, no matter what the weather. If using an attached garage, know that glass dust (and to a lesser extent, resin fumes) will permeate your home for years. Protect your lungs and eyes from contact with resin, fumes, or glass dust. Skin protection is a good idea, too. See John Sweet's website for information on how to do this. Do not skip this step! REALLY!

The flimsy deck may be a cause for concern if you decide to re-seam the boat (outside seam, that is.) Depends on how steady you are with a grinder because you need to grind down the old outside seam to "bare" cloth to get the new seam to adhere. Hand sanding using auto body papers and quick-switch sanding blocks is the only reasonable alternative, and will take a while for a ww seam. Using an electric drill with a sanding disc is a good way to ruin a good drill. In addition, if the drill is old enough to be used to sand fiberglass, it probably will be a bitch to control well enough to avoid gouges that will make the re-seam job go bad in a hurry. Remember, you were warned!

I would duct tape the bow area delamination, and unless the split seam areas are flexing and stressing the inside seam or leaking, I would go with high quality duct tape there, too.

Testing split seams (or other delaminated areas) with a steel pocketknife blade is the way to determine if glasswork is needed. If the laminate yields, crumbles, or holes out when firmly prodded, it is time to get out the resin and cloth.

Checking for leaks is a good idea, too. That way you will know where a glass repair is needed!

Tie the vertically inverted boat to something like a telephone pole or a tree. Leaning it against a wall or building will work, but make sure the boat is well secured to prevent it falling to the ground.

Use the garden hose to fill the inverted bow or stern with water. Look for little streams of water along the seam line and other areas of the laminate that have been "wounded." Mark the leaks with a grease pen or marker.

Empty the boat and do the other end. With a ww boat, this is a lot of weight, so be careful not to let things get out of hand. :wink:

Probe the marked areas with the knife blade. Proceed with repairs as needed.

Aren't glass boats fun?

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:44 pm
by KNeal
To the guest that keeps responding to this post--yep. Mike W. is nuts. That is why he c-boats! :D

And, MotorCity, you dam near caused me to burst a blood vessel from laughing :lol:

KNeal

P.S.

Mike, let's get together as soon as we can. I'm now really itching to try that thing out.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:17 pm
by kaz
Mysterious GUEST is very knowledgable. Would he like a job at Millbrook Boats?
Happy Holidays!
JKaz

I'll second that...

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:23 pm
by Sir Adam
Whoever you are...PLEASE KEEP UP THE POSTING! You're right-on with your comments / ideas /etc.... Thank you for contributing 8)

Whatever else you do, buy a copy of Boat Builders Manual

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:59 pm
by Roy
Edited by Charlie Walbridge and available from the out-of-print section of www.bn.com for about four bucks.

BTW, and whatever else you do don't cut the seam!

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:44 pm
by sbroam
I don't know 'bout all that glass talk from our mystery "guest" - however, he nailed it when he said Mike was nutz, so he must be right 'bout the rest! :lol: And if he was to call me nutz, he'd be right, too...

Scott

ps - Mike - I hope you got as good a deal or better than I did on my slalom boat.

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:56 pm
by Guest
Thanks for the kind words.

Here is an AW article by Dana Castro well worth reading before doing glass boat work:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/journ ... _1_079.jpg

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:26 am
by Guest
Final thoughts on installing blue foam walls:

If you chose to use a resin instead of Liquid Nails to install and secure the walls in your ww boat, be sure to use epoxy resin to do so.

Blue foam insulation is an extruded polystyrene product. It is usually the Styrofoam brand, but other companies make it using different brand names (and in different colors, including pink.) Extruded polystyrene melts when it comes in contact with uncured vinylester or polyester resins. So be sure to use an epoxy adhesive or Liquid Nails.

After you have made a set of walls that fit well in the boat, consider making another set of brown paper patterns using the new walls before gluing them into the boat. Mark the patterns clearly to identify the boat they fit, and the position (bow, stern, deck and hull.) This new set of patterns can be used the next time someone feels the need to cut new walls. They will be superior to the patterns made with either tracing method described above. You will not likely need them, but having them costs very little.

Liquid Nails doesn't sand and shape as easily as the foam, so keep it away from the edges of the wall during the assembly of the layers. Use care to spread the glue evenly and thinly. If you don't, the cutting, sanding, and fitting of the assembled wall will be slower.