C-Forum

I mostly paddle an Outrage and a Slasher. When I do a cross forward stroke I lean forward for the catch then sit up as the boat comes up on the paddle. In those boats the forward lean seems to work well and, in the Slasher, improve my stability.
But then I have this Foreplay. If I lean forward the bow goes down and the current has it's way with me. So I'm trying to get a good cross forward without the forward lean. The stroke feels short and ineffective. So I tend to try to bring it back more which results in the pretzle syndrome and a tendency to spin back to the on side.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Also I'm finding this boat harder to roll. I think I'm less than 90 degrees out when I start. Either that or I'm sweeping forward as I come up. In either case I seem to be coming up closer to 45 degrees from the boat, too close in and the bow is sinking.
Any thoughts on how to make sure I'm 90 degrees out and stay there for the roll?
FYI I'm 195lbs and 5'9" with short legs and a long torso.
Thanks

Let's see if any of this can help.

It sounds like you're putting a lot of your body weight on your knees (which open boaters can do and get away with it). What I've learned through slalom paddling and great instruction from some of our own CBoats.net c-boaters is to keep your body weight off your knees and put it on the paddle while still being able to lean forward.

A tip I was given was to push down on the "t"-grip when initiating the forward stroke and put your body weight there. Do this and see if you can lift your knees at the same time. You should see the bow stay out of the water.

I understand that the Forplay is more difficult to roll than other designs. I suggest you keep working on pulling the boat under you vs. simply rolling the hull flat. It really doesn't matter where you are in relation to the paddle when rolling, as long as you keep certain fundamentals of the rolling technique (brace with your paddle, roll with your lower body). I have learned several methods of rolling and one of the fastest ways I can roll is with the paddle in front of me (toward the bow). I believe this is called a bow-deck roll. This works best when I flip offside and the paddle is already toward the bow.

As far as your bow sinking on the roll, it still sounds like you're putting a lot of your body weight on your knees when rolling. I'll defer to someone else on how to decrease this little thing, but it sounds like you have a great approach for going into a bow stall . Isn't this called a "Zero-to-Hero", or "Party Trick"?

KNeal

...this might sound silly.... but what paddle length are you using?

First off thanks to Kneal. I'll try getting the weight off the knees and on the paddle.

Craig mostly I use a 58" I was messing around with a shorter stick(50"?) but figured since my roll is spotty I'd better stick with my standard paddle.

Bow diving on cross-forward with a Forplay? I had this problem with my Big EZ & Acrobat. You will either learn to keep your torso upright or do bow-stalls. You can also try tilting the boat slightly away from the side that you're paddling on. This will help the bow shed water, help tracking & reduce the number of cross-strokes that you'll need to do. Also check your trim. Are you bow heavy?

I also learned the 'zero to hero' when I went from a Cascade to the Big EZ. It's cool when you want to do it , but a bit un-nerving in class IV Try starting the roll with your blade more toward the stern than straight out to the side. This will compensate for the lack of bouancy in the bow.

I spent a little time in my forplay and then a lot of time in my groove, then went back to the forplay. I am still a plebe paddler compared to some, but here's my $.02.

I agree with the 'bow heavy? question. When you lean way forward and then way backward, are the tips of the boat each buried by the same amount? If not, you might move your seat until they are close to the same, or slightly more down in the stern.

Another thing that comes to mind is: are you arching your back or hunching forward when you reach forward. I think I keep more weight on my butt if I arch my back when I lean forward. Try it sitting on a ball on a padded floor. Figure out how to lean way forward without putting all your weight on your knees. Sounds kooky, but there is something there worth learning.

Finally, & I have been disagreed with on this one, but try to do your forward stroke with shoulder rotation instead of rocking fore and aft, even on the off side. It ends up being a paddle plant followed by jamming the knees forward as you rotate your shoulders to make the stroke. Offside especially, you want short powerful bursts, not long strokes. I think that this is even more true in the low volume boats.

Tommy,

If you have access to other paddles try a 54-56" once. Secondly try a technique change by making shorter strokes less close to the front of the boat. There is some other good info in the responses above that are worth trying. Have fun!

Wow! Lots of good stuff. Thanks All.
I think my trim is good. I've been told it sits pretty even when I'm sitting up and I have to lean way forward to get a bowstall in the pool.
Pool sessions starting Monday. Sounds like I'll have lots to do

Thanks again,
Tommy

Lot of good advice -- esp the description from Cone Bone just above.

The first thing I would work on is cutting down on leaning forward & bobbing the boat. The whole clue to not wasting energy is torso twist. Do you rock forward & back with your forward stroke as well, or do you twist & unwind? When you go for the cross, try to remain upright but really twist your torso to face the offside: try to twist your shoulders around so that someone beside you on the on-side is looking at your back! Reach forward to "spear a fish" as you drive the paddle in (that is, don't pull back on the paddle before the blade is immersed). You will be leaning toward the bow a bit as you reach for the catch, but since your body is twisted around it is partly a "sideways" body lean as well. Try to keep your weight off your knees as much as possible, but once you start the stroke, then fully commit & jam the weight into the paddle stroke.

I envy your long torso: being short & stubby, twisting enought for a cross-forward takes work. The flip side is that the taller you are, the greater the effect when you move your shoulders away from the center balance point. Try to work on really twisting around as far as you can, then imagine your body as first twisting & then arching almost like a bow (that's "bow&arrow" bow!) as you prepare to start the catch. Rather than just leaning the whole torso forward, this also helps you to minimize the weight/balance from shifting forward.

Finally, just a comment -- since my experience is entirely with light-weight slalom boats, the lighter the boat the more obvious it is that energy gets wasted with forward leaning & bobbing (even tho some of the best do it on occasion!), but energy is still getting wasted even in a heavier boat.

Cheers...

This is a short clip of Kaz, including some Crosses
http://www.wwslalom.org/paddling/kaz.rm

Great reading all these tips.

Racing looks tiring!

Wish I could try it, I know it would be a great way to test the efficiency of my strokes, but it seems like eastern thing, or maybe just isn't for rec open boats?

P.

Hey Pat,
I don't know much about Slalom but I bought a dvd on the Open Boat Nationals from Bob Fries. It's the same course and I think the same competition that Bob Putnams clip is from. On the dvd there are LOTS of Roylex boats, Dagger Phantoms, Ocoees and Captions as well as some Esquif boats.
One thing I'm sure of is if some sucker in an Ocoee beats you or me in our Outrage's, it won't be because their boat was faster!

Tommy