C-Forum

For wht it's worth, I put up a review of the Shaggy Sith on playak.com:
http://playak.com/kayaks.php?op=showreview&rid=54

martin

Martin - how does the boat track, and how is the hull speed? Also, does the bow of the Sith stay out of the water when you are really reaching forward and digging in to make a move in harder water? While I love my wheelboy, I have found that, at my weight (200lbs), it is much too slow for general river running on anything harder than class III-, and I tend to end up vertical at inopportune times, so I would eventually like to have a better river runner that still has some play. Think the Sith would fit this bill?

Matt

p.s. to billcanoes - I'm originally from the Charlotte area, and visit there at least twice a year. How can I arrange to demo your Sith (and your Bigboy) on one of the local lakes while I'm in town?

Hi Matt,

You cant take either the Sith or the Big Boy on the lake.

But except for a nice PFD, I have spare helmets and paddles and we could go down Upper Green, Lower Green, Tuck, Nanty, Upper Wautauga etc.. Whenever you are here we can arrange for you to try the boat out-

Either myself or a buddy- or I decided after Mike was unable to try the SIth to get a combo lock for them.

Anyway, I'm 190. The Sith does great on bigger water. I have the same problem as you trying to ferry in pushy water with the Wheelboy- The best part about the Sith is it still has lots of play, but is stable enough to be comfortable on bigger water, and is faster. Now I can't do them every time but I connect a flatwater stern squirt to bow stall in it. I havent tried the Big boy yet, but I think it will make a better river runner for my/our weight.

Matt,

The Sith tracks really well when you lean it a bit to engage the edges. It has good hull speed do, definitely faster than my Wheelboy (The wheelboy is actually fast for such a short boat), and probably almost on par with the Finkenmeister (haven't paddled them side by side, so for now this is just gut feeling.

as far as riverrunning is concerned, it is excellent, due to it's speed and tracking ferries are a breeze. As far as reaching forward on a crossbow stroke, my boat does once in a while dive if I am too agressive in my forward lean, however my boat has, to increase playability, a cut of 1 cm (~3/8 inch) in both the hull and deck, which reduces the volume bit. For your weight a full volume boat would probably not dive at all even on an agressive lean on a crossbow stroke and would in general not go vertical unless you wanted it to do so.
I think for what you are looking for, the Sith fits the bill!

So far I have been using mine mainly on the Ottawa, which is at the current levels mainly class III-IV big water.


martin

Matt,
The Sith is definitely faster than the Wheelboy. Much faster. When I'm waiting in an eddy for Bill to catch up, I have much less time to enjoy my jerky and Gatorade snack if he's in the Sith.

I haven't paddled the Sith on a river yet, but it feels great on flatwater. Stable, well-balanced, and fast. If I could adapt to paddling a decked boat, I think I'd really enjoy the Sith. Looks like I'll stick to open boats for awhile. The next time you're in Charlotte we'll get you in the Sith on some moving water.

Martin,

You have the same cut that I have been pondering for a Sith purchase...

Do you know the volume of the Sith with that cut?

If no stat is available, how do you think the volume compares to your WB?

Thanks,

Cone Bone,

The Wheelboy has, according to Drakkar, 56 gallons of volume, while my Shaggy Sith (1cm cut on hull & Decks) feels volumewise (ease of throwing down and such) similar to the Prijon Delirious but definitely more than a XXX (however much more stable and balanced than both of them ), so I guess it's volume is probably somewhere in the high 40 gallon range probably around 48-49 gallons.
I think my Shith has ~7-8 gallons less volume than my Wheelboy, just by feel.
As far as I know Martin and Gwyn have never really measured the volume of the Sith, their volume info is more of a guess, as fa=r as I know they have never really measured the volume of them, but I will see the guys today at the Ottawa, I will ask them.

martin

matt,

Also, does the bow of the Sith stay out of the water when you are really reaching forward and digging in to make a move in harder water? While I love my wheelboy, I have found that, at my weight (200lbs), it is much too slow for general river running on anything harder than class III-, and I tend to end up vertical at inopportune times,

i'm sure i'm not telling you anything you don't already know... the wb is pretty much a full on playboat. that doesn't mean you can't run rivers in it though. you just can't paddle it the same way you paddle a long boat 'cause it responds so nicely to upper body movements! if you reach way forward, it'll go down for sure.
try keeping your upper body neutral, and that bow will stay up. i think, for a playboat, it handles rivers very well. it just takes a different style of paddlin' is all!

48 ish gallons... way more than my Groove, less than the WB, long waterline... slicey ends: sounds like another boat I have to have.

Thanks for the info, Martin. Can you (ar anyone) compare the Sith to a Viper (the c variety, not the oc)? Not just stat's, but feedback on any actual experience?

Sorry Randy,

I can't help you there, I have never even seen a Viper.

martin

About me"
I'm 190-195 and 5'6"- I think I'm a low intermediate to intermediate paddler, I think I can run class 3-4- Ive run New River Gorge, and Big South FOrk in my Viper 11 open boat at low water. Both were fun and mildly challenging but I did not feel overwhelmed on either AND dont anticipate paddling rivers harder than these- Anyway, I personally don't have as much fun in bigger boats- I feel I dopnt get challenged enough- thought I shared this information to help put this review in perspective.
ALSO:
I just started playboating when I got the wheelboy, so about 4 months- I'm definately a river runner instead of park and play-
My first ender(stern squirt was Nov 03 in my skeeter and was unintentional- I thought that was one of the most fun experiences I had) I love being able to stern squirt, bow stall and occassionally cartwheel. These aspects of paddling really spicen up the river for me.

Wheelboy:
I have the same problem as the heavier paddlers, which is I bury the bow unitintentionally especially on ferries. I have about 5-10 lbs of gear in the stern and I trimmed about .25 from my the back foam rest on the saddle. The Wheelboy is really an interesting boat in that if the water is moving I feel like I can get to speed quickly- however, I maded the mistake on taking this on an AW rated 2-3 river, but it was really flat- I think 155-165 is the ideal weight - When I saw David Good in the boat much more of it was above water and I didn't see his bow bury at all. PAC I think is 180 and his boat was trim and think he is probably going to be near the top weight range for river running. I enjoy river running in my boat, I especially have enjoyed it on Upper Green and Wilson Creek Gorge, and of course Slippery Rock Creek with the linked Cartwheel hole.
For playboating the wheelboy is able to do loops NOT WITH ME THOUGH and throw down the easiest- there is more stern volume so I find it easiest to initiate bow stalls and work from there and the few times I've linked any moves- for river running I think it needs to be at least class II with current in between rapids or short distance. The wheelboy bobs the most just running down the river which I think is fun. I

Sith:
The Demo Sith is the full cut version. It migh be a hair more stable than the wheelboy, with a tad less volume- I haven't taken it on any big volume water yet, but think it would be fine. I havent buried my bow yet paddling the Sith. I also carry 5-10 of gear in the stern and had a few unintenional stern squirts just paddling, but I find this enjoyable. In flat water, the bottom of lower green river, class 1 it is faster than the wheelboy, but still has a hard time keeping up with the big open boats. It surfs really nicely, and
really snaps into eddies great,
http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prs ... &adjust=-1

http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prs ... &adjust=-1

It is much faster than the Wheelboy for down river paddling. In flatter sections I will sometimes lean back and lift my knees toward my chest to get the stern to submerge and will play around trying to keep my balance like that- At my weight I'm able to lean forward and paddle more aggressively without pearling. For me this is a great river runner it has enough playability for me to keep things interesting and fun.

Viper:
I just bought my Viper last month from Marshall- It is the most stable of the bunch and obviously the fastest. For the class river I do; 3 with the occassional 4, I don't anticiapate using this boat a bunch on the river- BUT I think its a great boat too. If I ever get to the point where I could paddle the top yough this would be the boat I would use- but I personally enjoy the smaller boats- Nothing against long boating I see a lot of people who can do a whole lot more than I in bigger boats- In plenty of instances the bigger boats, Outrage X OC1, viper 12, Viper c1 will surf far better than the smaller boats- but when I surf in these bigger boats, I feel like I'm just sitting there. I personally love the added play and work the smaller boats offer. If you like the bigger boats than this would be the one you want- Before I got the SIth I was thinking of getting an Atom, which I used on Little falls on the Potomac- I think the Atom is a great boat for bigger water for river running, but feel the Sith or Viper offer more playabilty, I'm glad in hindsight I didnt get one. I wish I had more Viper experience, but it is a boat I personally dont see myself in a lot.

Sorry if this is a little long.
Bill

Martin, Dave and Bill - thanks for the replies - the Sith sounds like what I am looking for.

Larry - I've found that at my weight, even when I sit neutral my bow dives. I have to lean pretty far back when I paddle downriver. It's great for the abs, but does get tiring. Have any of you WB owners out there tried shaving some foam off of the seat back? How did it turn out?

Bill - awesome, thanks. Can't wait to try the Sith and the Big Boy out. I hope I can find the time to get on a river with you, but my next trip to NC will probably be a relatively short one for Christmas, so it may have to be a flatwater test by necessity. I'll get in touch and we'll work something out. Wish Charlotte's new whitewater park was up and running....

Matt

Hi Matt,

I cut about .25" off the back of my wheelboy and keep weight inthe stern- I'm 190-195 and YES this made a huge improvement- I might even replace the foam and install new thinner foam- we'll see- the foam doesnt shave as easily as minicell. (IMO) and I dont know I can cut thin enough from where I am.

Demo- It's always busy- I only got to paddle with Tommes once- I hope he had fun in the US.

Anyway, river or lake either is fine- lower green is 90 min from my house-its a great demo river since its class II at the most but has a few playspots, I live near South Park/Quail Corners- see you over the holidays.

Bill
billcanoes@yahoo.com
704-604-6687

I have to agree with Bill in that I was trying to modify my WB outfitting but found working with the factory foam… well challenging! I have since started the process to slowly replace the factory foam with minicell using the original foam as the template and saving just in case (a couple years from now I’ll be wondering what the heck I saved it for )! I plan on shaving then seat back down to move my butt back most likely a couple mm like Bill stated (I’m 180-185 and 5’8”ish). I’m also going to be raising the seat height about an 1 to 1 ½ (sloped angle from higher in the back to lower in front). My $.01!

Bill – hopefully you are feeling better and we’ll see you on the LY next weekend! I’d like to check out your outfitting and maybe the Sith! Paul C.

PS: David G. Keep us posted as to how the WB handles on the UY – inquiring minds would like to know!

PAC,

I will post how the WB does on the Upper Yough, but keep in mind that I'm not sure if I will do all that well on the UY in any boat. I haven't run the upper nor have I run that many difficult rivers since I gave up my training paddle. I still feel as though I'm not as good in technical water as I was in a K1. I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but I'm definitely not going to be running the hero lines... (I'd really love to run the boof line on National, but it's off-side for me now, and I really haven't done any boofing on or off-side in a C-1)

Either way I'll post and let you all know how it goes.


Take It Easy,

David