Purpose of roll setup position?

[ohioboater]

I was checking out the Foote video (and also just random clips of people rolling their OCs), and for the life of me I can't figure out why one needs to set up in high brace position and then flip the paddle after sweeping out. Can't you just set up in low brace position to start with?

I won't get much, if any, time to mess with this in a pool until Fall, which is why I'm asking here instead of just going out and experimenting.

[sbroam]

Compare that roll to the one Kent Ford describes in the C-1 Challenge and Solo Playboating. Unfortunately, he doesn't have any underwater footage. His set up and sweep out are a little different - you don't flip the paddle for one. Do a search on rolling, it's been discussed here quite a bit.

I do have some underwater footage of my roll which is basically what Ford teaches, however it's not the greatest quality (footage or roll)...

http://bookwoman.net/scott/paddling/C-1_Roll/

[Sandie_]

As a non-roller who watches Bobs video constantly in the vein hope of one day being able to do it. I think the reason is to stop the blade diving. If you swept the blade out in a low brace grip it would dive deep. Sweeping out with a high brace grip sculls the blade to the surface.

The part I found dificult to understand is why not stay in the high brace like you do in a kayak.

It is confusing as every method I have tried fails to work just as consistantly as any other.

what i don't understand is that my kayak roll is totally bomb proof on both sides. I don't have to think, it just happens.

Sandie
_________________

[John Coraor]

It is possible to stay in a high brace position all the way through the roll. My 12-year-old son rolls his C-1 that way. However, even more than in a kayak, a high brace canoe roll requires quick execution as the high brace has less long-term staying power than the low brace (i.e. if you don't get up right away on the high brace, you're not getting up).

I've never watched Bob Foote's video but your description of it matches the classic canoe roll. The high brace sweep does keep the blade from diving and also helps you to get your body up to the surface. I think the basic intent is to extend the amount of time that you can put pressure on the paddle in order to have more time to snap the boat up with your hips and thighs. However, as Scott's video shows, it is possible to do all that from a low brace position as well. It is also possible to roll with a cross roll (imagine a cross low brace) or a hands roll, although my own experience with same is 20 years and 50-less lbs. ago.

Like in a kayak, there are a variety of methods; the method you choose doesn't matter as much as whether you can make it work for you.

John

[billcanoes]

When I roll, which is about 20 times a trip, ( i have no natural ability paddling but at least I'm not swimming much anymore LOL) I try to get my head and upper body as close to the surface as possible, i try to break the surface of the water with my paddle and keep the paddle near the surface, then i think about putting the boat under my knees.

I come up in a low brace - I assume extending your body and arms is the high brace set up(?) I think this extends your leverage point so you dont need as much energy to come up.

my .02 I've only been rolling for 4 months so anyone with more experience knowledge feel free to correct.

[Mike W.]

I set up in the low brace position. As I'm flipping to my offside, I go ahead & tuck forward with the power face to the bow deck. I then sweep out, face the river bed & roll up. The blade seldom dives on me, if it does, adjust & get it back to the surface, then roll. If my hand slips off of the paddle, I put it back, set up & roll. If my head bounces off of rocks, I set up & roll. If I'm getting worked & the current has more control of my paddle than I do, I get the blade back to the bow deck, wait a bit then set up & roll.

The canoe/C-1 roll is a low brace. It really is that simple. You can roll a canoe with a high brace, but it is much more difficult to do & it's tougher on the shoulder too Think about the difference in strength you have pulling up on your t-grip palm up vs palm down. You can try this strength test with a chair. I've even heard of a famous C-1'er who rolled with a forward stroke I've tried that unsuccesfully.

The one thing that helped me learn to roll more than anything else was tilting to my on-side, dipping the top of my head into the water & low-bracing back up. This helps the hip snap & brace plus it teaches you to keep your head down. You don't have to start with dropping your head all the way to the water, start easier & work your way down. Once you have developed your low brace you'll seldom flip on-side. Then start flipping offside & continue the spin momentum to help your roll

Don't wait to go to a pool. Go to the river, lake, pond, creek, whatever, just get that boat in the water

[yarnellboat]

Agreed that an OC roll is basically a low brace. And once you've got a solid brace, you won't go over too much on your on side.
If you do go over, no real "set up" is required since your low brace is already there - just put your head in, settle over your low brace position, square to the bottom, float your shoulders to the surface, and roll up.

So, I'm assuming the high brace set up you're talking about is only for when you go over off side. I agree that the main purpose of going under your boat in a high brace is to minimize the chance of fighting your blade. And it just seems sleeker/faster. It also orients the mind/body for the motion - if I don't go for the high brace, I don't know where to go.

I think it will also you keep you & your paddle closer to your deck (i.e., farther off the river bottom). Finally some hull designs need some encouragement to come all the way around, which requires a bit of sculling from the high brace position, only then can you flip your paddle and come up on the low brace.

So, not that there aren't times & places for other rolls or set ups, but I'd say there are several reasons to come under in a high brace position.

P.

[KNeal]

I'm gonna reiterate what most everyone has said so far about high bracing, low bracing and rolling. So everyone understands how a high brace position differs from a low brace position, I'll simply refer to how the knuckles of the "t"-grip hand are oriented (knuckles up=high brace; knuckles down=low brace).

For "Ohioboater", I see the high brace setup as the easiest way of sweeping the paddle out to the side; however, as other posters have pointed out, it gives you the weakest support for rolling--translation, you have to be GREAT rolling your boat with your lower body in order to use the high brace successfully . Switching over to the low brace gives you the BEST support for rolling--you can put a lot of your bodyweight on the paddle and use that as leverage to help roll up if you are not strong rolling with your lower body.

You CAN sweep out on the low brace, but you have to make sure you angle the leading edge of your blade upward so the blade sculls toward the surface instead of underneath you .

Again, I'm just restating what has already been posted, but I definitely have VAST experience of rolling (just ask anyone at the last Spring Armada about that! ).

Sandie, if you can make any of the armadas, at least one of us will be happy to help you with the rolling.

KNeal

[Larry Horne]

o.k. ohio boater, here's what you need to do. please listen carefully.
first, i'm going to assume you have access to a car and drive to rivers now and then. if you don't, well, we can come up with another exersize for you.
o.k. here we go..you need to take that foote video next time you drive to the river. don't worry about the video player, just bring the tape. now, you need to get up to a speed of about 65 mph. when you do, now this is important, take your t-grip hand (assuming you paddle right), and with a low brace grip, (that's knuckles down) take the tape and toss it right out the window. i find it really helps to keep the tape flat, or parallel to the road surface, as you flick it like a frisbee. never, ever, flip to a high brace grip in the middle of a toss! keep those knuckles down!
also..it will be in your best interest to do this when there are no other vehicles or police around. but, and this is very important, please do it on a buisy road so we can rest assured no one else will ever see that tape!
now you are free to go get a kent ford video!

[fez]

I learned it also from Books ("Thrill of the paddle" and "paddle your own canoe") and Kent Fords Video.

The high brace helps me to bring the blade and my body fast to the surface and also I find it more easy with it to find the right angle (90°) of my body to the keel line.

What helps me very much is to:
first do the hip snap without any pressure on the paddle - and
second bringing the body into the boat
(by pressing with my forehead on my shaft hand and doing a body crunch not forgetting some kind of sweep forward and keeping the head as long as possible in the water and the body near to the boat).

I find it hard to come up like Kent Ford - with the paddle nearly not sinking and bringing it over the gunnels nearly parallel to the decks / floatation bags

[ohioboater]

with a low brace grip, (that's knuckles down) take the tape and toss it right out the window. . . . never, ever, flip to a high brace grip in the middle of a toss! keep those knuckles down!

Hmm. Wouldn't holding it in a high brace position when I first extend my arm out perpendicular to the car keep the tape from diving too soon?

I do have Solo Playboating, so I'll have to look at Kent's roll section again. I do wish he would have included just a tiny bit more footage there.

[sbroam]

There needs to be some updated underwater footage of the c-boat roll - c-1 and open boat, maybe even OC-2. I was experimenting with that using my digital camera and a waterproof enclosure (the brand name is escaping me - a clear bag type) when I killed my camera. I don't know whether to blame the bag or the operator... Either way, I'm not using that bag again!

Anybody have any proper underwater video equipment?

[fez]

the Pentax Optio works also under water:
http://www.pentaximaging.com/products/p ... tion=optio


See also here the test by soulboater.de (only in german):
http://www.soulboater.com/sbt2004/core/ ... 7&lang=deu

[Sandie_]

Do any of our paddlers work in a zoo?
More specifically do they feed the penguins?
When no one was looking you could .......

[Sandie_]

is the strange noise on sbroam's video dolphins?