C-Forum

I have possibilities to buy Esquif Detonator or Zoom or Pyranha Prelude. So I need to choose . From my kayaking experience/mostly creeking/, I can imagine the Preludes bottom will make ugly oil canning pretty soon. From other hand the Esquif Royalex probably not so bomb proof . My canoe expirience coming only from pictures and descriptions and I need an really advise

Whaddya weigh?

What class of water are you in when butt boating?

Do you think you will creek in the new canoe?

Other details may add to the responses you may get.

Welcome to CBoating!

Where you paddle also makes a big difference. In NY I beat the heck out of a Detonator for 3 years and it was still going strong. Here in Switzerland I've had my Zoom a year and will be very surprised if it's still alive in 2 years time. My next OC1 will probably not be Royalex if I'm still here in Switzerland (Bernese Oberland). The rivers are too bony and continuous. For most places, however, Royalex will hold up fine and it is definitely lighter than poly(ethylene).

I haven't had a prelude, but I think oil canning should only be a major major problem if you store the boat incorrectly. The saddle should actually provide a lot of support to prevent that in the center of the hull (far more than a kayak seat).

I think I would not recommendd the Zoom as your first OC1. It is definitely a lot twitchier and edgier than the Detonator. The Prelude is in-between. I think for your first boat, the Detonator would be the best of the three you mentioned. The Prelude will probably seem more stable initially, but will also be edgier once you get it in current. When it was released the Zoom was specifically recommended as an intermediate-advanced boat and is less stable and very edgy (for a canoe - it's got nothing on the Groove) .

I recommend demoing if at all possible. Enjoy the decisions and be happy you live where you have such a range of boats available

NZMatt

Whaddya weigh? - 80kg(176lbs)

What class of water are you in when butt boating? - I guess 4+

Do you think you will creek in the new canoe? - I hope I will because I want

Thanks for advice!

I recommend demoing if at all possible. Yep, only one problem, the closest demoing place is 2000 km away from me...

I shoulda looked at where you were located....when you said you had all three available as options I thought you must be in North America. If you happen to be in Switzerland at any point, give me a buzz and you can try the Zoom atleast.

Cheers,

Matt

shoulda looked at where you were located....when you said you had all three available as options

Options is because we have an Pyranha dealer in Latvia and Esquif canoes I can buy in Triest Italy in Alpin action shop when I will come next year to Soca Slovenia.

Beereddy-

Did you say that you've never paddled a canoe?

If that's the case, I wouldn't even bother to demo the Zoom or the Prelude- with no canoeing experience, you will find those two boats almost impossible to handle. (If you do demo them, it will probably turn you off canoes completely!)

I agree with NZMatt that the Detonator is the most beginner friendly of the 3 boats you mentioned.

But I think even the Detonator might be too aggresive for a total beginner.

I say this based on what I saw recently during a beginning WW instructional I helped teach. All the folks had some flatwater OC1 and OC2 experience, but they still had alot of difficulty controlling much less aggressive OC1's (boats like Dagger Rivals and Impulses, and Mohawk Probe 12s) on easy class 2 water.

The OC1 learning curve is ALOT longer than the K1 learning curve (it will probably take you twice as long as it did with the K1 to get to the skill level you are now), so those 4+ creeks you've been paddling in your K1 are at least several years in the future in your OC1.

With that in mind, you might be better off starting in a bigger, more stable boat (something in the 11-12 foot range). Maybe the Esquif Nitro?

since you got the piraña dealer why not try the spanish fly

Hmmm....I will have to disagree with you Nessmuk. The Detonator was my first OC1 and I also came from a kayaking background and had to (for the most part) teach myself to OC1. Before I started paddling OC1 I had been kayaking about 2-3 years and was running easy V in a kaya. I was also very used to short (7.5-8ft long) kayaks. The first canoe I paddled was a Mohawk XL13 (old style). I paddled it a couple of times, and it was OK - very stable, but I couldn't get used to the lack of responsiveness compared to the kayaks I had been used to (and still paddled - back then anyway). I also tried an Outrage and I liked that better, but it still didn't turn as quickly as I wanted. I demoed the Detonator on the West River (class III) in Vermont and bought the demo that weekend. That was 6 months after I first got into an OC1.

It is very true that the Detonator will be harder to paddle straight and less forgiving than a larger boat, but I think the risk with a larger boat is growing out of it too quickly. The Detonator does not have good primary stability (atleast with the 10in (30cm) saddle I had in mine it had next to none) but the secondary stability is phenomenal and if you are comfortable with the boat on edge (which is an important skill anyway) then the lack of primary is no problem.

The only boat I have paddled which I would say would be better for a beginner moving from kayaking (and used to short modern kayaks) would be the Phantom (which my wife has), but which is no longer available. Some of the rotomolded decked canoes (Spanish Fly, Skeeter, Taureau) might also be OK, but I don't have any real experience with them.

Beereddy - do you have access to any WW canoes you can start to paddle? Even if only on flatwater? It'd be a really good idea to try it a bit before you buy. It's a totally different beast to kayaking. I love the added challenge and am now (after 4-5 years with LOTS of paddling) able to paddle about the same technical difficulty that I could after 2 years paddling a kayak. Long continuous sections are still far more difficult however due to the lack of a deck.

You might also want to check out the new Esquif Taureau or consider trying out C1 if you can't find an OC1 to try.

When were you planning on going to the Soca? Maybe we could meet up there.

Cheers,

Matt

PS. For reference regarding my boat comments I am 175cm and ~65kg.

since you got the piraña dealer why not try the spanish fly

From dealer I can only order boats from Pyranhas catalog, but not try.
and as I understand the spanish fly is more for freestyle than creeking

To Nessmuk

Did you say that you've never paddled a canoe?

No, I have experience in class 2+/3 river when I canoeing alone with self made folding OC2, and some C1 experience in competitions

so those 4+ creeks you've been paddling in your K1 are at least several years in the future in your OC1.

I've paddling creeks class 5+ in K1 .The class 4+ I want paddling in OC1 somewhwere in future of course.

With that in mind, you might be better off starting in a bigger, more stable boat ...

Yes , You are right, but this boats are so expensiv for me thats better buy one good performance canoe and learning until everything happends

Hiya Beereddy,
OK, so if you really want something for creeking, and are willing to deal with a steep learning curve, the Piranha will be more durable than the royalex boats. On the other hand, the Detonator is both a good boat for learning in and also an excellent boat for harder water - that's part of what it was designed for. The only 2 complaints I ever had with it were (1) really slow and (2) no edges (which although a bonus for forgiveness, makes it hard to learn some techniques that require edges - outside lean turns being one example. The Zoom is faster and edgier - hence my decision to replace my Detonator with it. But, those edges took some serious getting used to. The Piranha will be in between in design - faster than the Detonator, but slower than the Zoom. Also very heavy, but significantly more durable if you are mainly scraping down rocky creeks. If you want a boat really designed for creeking though, check out the new Esquif Taureau. It is still an OC1 (albeit only just) but is poly(ethylene) so should be durable. I'd be ordering one myself if they weren't so damned expensive over here. Instead I'm going to wait and get the Fat Boy C1 creeker as soon as Drakkar release it.
Ciao
Matt

To NZMatt

do you have access to any WW canoes you can start to paddle? Even if only on flatwater?

Noup


When were you planning on going to the Soca? Maybe we could meet up there.

It's depend of kayak school in I working for. Probably in July or August

Stay in touch

Eddy

Beereddy,

I have had a Pyranha Prelude for the last 3 seasons, done a fair amount of creeking in it, and there is, probably due to the fact that the foam saddle sandwiched in between the thwarts and the hull, no oilcanning whatsoever noticeable.
I just happened to paddle the Gull ribver in Ontario this weekend, there was a lot of boat swapping between tha paddles going on, I paddled next to my Prelude and among others also the Detonator as well as the Zoom. I got again confirmation that buying the Prelude was the right choice for me, I still like it better than the Detonator and Zoom, and it is wauy more durable as well, particularly for creeking.
I don not think that you will necessarily be overwhelmed by an advanced boat like the Prelude, I have a friend who is a proficient class 4+ to 5 kayaker who started paddling open boats (he borrowed my Prelude to do that) last summer, by the end of the fall he started running class 4 rapids in the open boat, all it takes is a lot of determination and practice.

martin