C-Forum

I'm in the market for a new open boat since my slovation is beat up. I've been planning on splurging on a new ocoee, but figured it'd be best to see what's on the used market first. I like the ovation but feel as though I need something more aggressive. I had a prelude, but I feel too big for it. I'm 5'10" 195lbs. I enjoyed it on small creeks but when I stepped it up to class 4 stuff, I swam some. Maybe it's too aggressive for me. I know a guy that has a detonator, that has been paddled 2 times. Fully outfitted, and he wants $750 for it. He's not willing to loan it out but I'm not sure about just buying a boat without trying it out. Any advise about the performance of a detonator compared to the other boats I've described above. Also, I've heard Esquif royalex is not the greatest quality. I'm sure I could get my $$ back if I buy it, but not sure it's worth the hassle.

Thanks,

Atucky

Adam Trunnell

I wouldn't worry too much about teh Esquif Royalex. I had a Detonator I boughr as a used demo boat and beat the heck out of it for two years (upstate NY) then put some skid plates on and beat it some more for another year (cracked both skid plates - I used too much resin in them) and then sold it on, for not much less that what your friend is asking for. I now have a Zoom.

The Detonator is not a hardchined boat like the Ocoee, but will be far more responsive han the Ovation. It is also not a fast boat, and is very forgiving due to the double chined hull (= soft edges). I think it's a really great all around boat - I moved up to the Zoom because I wanted something faster with some edge to it so I could develop my skills a bit more. Overall I rate teh Detonator a thumbs up.

NZMatt

I have to disagree with NZMatt, I saw a 2 year old Esquif Vertige a month ago on the Ottawa that had the Royalexon the bottom litterally come off in pieces. The foam core was exposed on an 8" by 8' patch, and the hull was soft on a 1 1/2' by 1 1/2' area, and I have seen several Nitro's and Detonator's with worn out chines.
I would definitely check the hull very carefully.

Personally, I am not a big fan of they way the double chined Esquif boats (Nitro & Detonator) handle, I prefer the Ocoee or Prelude. They are both faster and carve better, and the Prelude is more maneuvrable.

The flat hull of the Esquif boats is very nice for surfing though.

If I was you, I would definitely try the Detonator out, as I noticed that people either love or hate them, there seems to be not much middle ground.

I don't think that 195 lbs is too heavy for the Prelude, I am between 185 and 190 lbs (6'1") and the Prelude is absolutely fine for me. Lowering the saddle by 1" to 1 1/2" helps the stability, and drain holes across the sdaddle to equalize the amount of water on each side is a must.

Just my 2cents.

martin

Yes, due to the hull shape the chines do tend to be the first places that really get worn on the Detonator and Nitro. That was where I placed the skid plates - not at the bow and stern like on other hull designs. I don't think that reflects on the Royalex though - it's due to the design of the hull and transfers wear which would otherwise show up in other areas. It also depends on the type of paddling you want to do and the type of rivers you paddle.

I have seen in other posts comments about how the company that manufactures Royalex is basically screwing with all the boat companies that use it - the manufacturer ships out large quantities of sub-standard Royalex, which is one (more) reason I've seen mentioned that many companies are looking to alternative materials. The Royalex was just getting too expensive due to the huge losses resulting from poor material quality. This was a general thing though and not something I have previously heard linked to Esquif in particular. A search for Royalex and Quality here on the forum should turn up some more information.

How heavily had the Vertige been used Martin? Around here it'd be easy to rip a canoe to pieces in 2 years, although I'd be guessing it'd be less normal on the bigger water rivers in your area.

Cheers,

Matt

I'm pretty sure you can try one out at NOC.

Just to be certain you like the style, but $750 sounds like a sweet price.

come to the conclusion that I really need to try that sucka out. thanks for the insight.

adam

NZMatt, the guy with the Vertige uses his boat a fair bit, maybe 50 days a year, but as far as i know mainly on big eater and not really on shallow and creeky runs.
I agree that the Royalex quality seems to have gone down signficantly over the last few years, this not only affects Esquif but all manufacturers, a buddy of mine bought an Ocoee last September and his hull has already significant areas in the chine where it is all soft and delaminating.
I have seen several former rental Ocoees that are several years old and have seen tons of fairly hard use that are in better shape.
I am avoiding royalex for now...

martin

Martin,

Looks like glass may be the way to go. I'm assuming, for anything but creeking due to durability. What are some glass boats that are comparable to what I'm looking for. I've never paddled a glass boat but have heard that the performance is great, and they're nice and light. Any other pros and cons that I may be unaware of?

Thanks for your time,

Adam

I'd love to check out either the Cactus boat or the new Bulldog- (hint)

Its much bigger but I like Kaz Defiant, for an open boat/glass-

I'm hoping to try/buy a Taureau too first weekend in September??? Only 1 boat needed for Creeking/welded plastic,

Have you ever tried any c1s? It's like an open boat, but a little painful, less room and dry.

Bill

Bill,

I'm actually borrowing a friends cascade right now. The problem is lack of water in Kentucky. I paddled it down the french broad and it felt really good. I've been working on my roll in the meantime (which, of course I've found WAYY easier than oc1). I find it more comfy than my prelude was/and a helluva lot more stable. I had to set the seat so darn low on that sucka, it was painful. In fact, fellow oc1'ers would jump in my prelude and jump out as fast as they could get in. I just laughed. I could see myself boating some big water in the cascade.
For some reason I feel like I still need an open boat. My goal for now is to have a nice open boat, a decked play boat, and maybe steal this cascade from my buddy Maybe I'd be better of converting something. I'll probably end up waiting for GAF or Gualley fest to find something cheap. All it takes is $$$$

Adam

I am 6' 3" and 195 lbs. and don't think I am too big for the Ocoee (I have two... my favorite boat) or any of the others mentioned except for the Zoom. Hoping for a Zoom X in the future as I really liked the boat when I paddled it but is a bit small. Don't underestimate the durability of the kevlar Milllbrook Boats. I have a Defiant and would like to get a Rumba, which is a cut down, more rockered version of the Defiant. Also really like the Spark although not sure it is as much of a play boat as the others. As someone else said, the Detonator and Nitro are great at surfing because of the totally flat bottom, but slow and heavy. Not too empressed with the double chine. Good luck with your choice.

I have been paddling a nitro for several years, as far as the royalex is concerned I have beet the living poop out of it. I rarely take care of my baby except for a little resin now and then and some 303 lovin. I seal slide off 10' sharp jagged rocks and still come out fine. as far as the performance goes. SLOW SLOW SLOW... I find the occoee a very fun boat to paddle and short of anything I have paddled out on the market, one of the more fun 11' OC-1s fast and responsive.
Detonator- have paddled several times would be great to creek and big water in a blast to surf big waves have fun!!!

although this boat hasn't really been mentioned the HOMES from robson boats ocoee look a like and a little shorter.

As for the Zoom love however still waiting for a slightly longer version ( Jaque and Eli give us big boys an OC to play in 10'zoom please santa)
Thats my two cents, actually probably 1.50

Adam,

Glass (or actually more accurately composites) are definitely a good choice, particularly with the improved materials available nowadays.
I was always sceptical about composite boats, but ever since I got myself a Shaggy Sith (check them out, there is a link to their home page on this site), I am a believer .
I guess it's true, once you paddled glass (composites), it's hard to go back ...
Check out the pictures of the Bulldog by Creative Composites (look for the thread about it lower down), and the Millbrook (Kaz) as well as the Class V boats, of course.
Kaz and Class V have websites with links here on nthis homepage, Andrew Phillips of Composite Creations can be reached at phillipsa@sympatico.ca, as far as I know he does not have a website yet.

martin

Hi Adam

PS COmposites has a modified Hahn for $600. I want to buy it/but would hardly ever use it. If you like the Cascade you might like this boat-

I'm not sure if I'll be paddling again this weekend or, but hope to get back on the water soon.

If you still have your prelude I'd like to try it.

Bill

Hi Adam

PS COmposites has a modified Hahn for $600. I want to buy it/but would hardly ever use it. If you like the Cascade you might like this boat-

I'm not sure if I'll be paddling again this weekend or, but hope to get back on the water soon.

If you still have your prelude I'd like to try it.

Bill