C-Forum

Greetings, all, I'm new to the forum so please forgive if I say dumb things.

A little about me, I live in VA near Harrisonburg. I've been addicted to boating for about six years. I'm most skilled in a kayak (gasp!) but have ventured into a little C-1 and more and more OC-1 and OC-2 in the past few years and love it all. As to skill level, I seem to do fine in a K-1 on the upper Yough, OC-1 on the lower Yough, and OC-2 (we can roll her) on the New Gorge and Ocoee and continuing to improve in all areas.

Enter the new-to-me C-2. Fiberglass, about fifteen feet long and 32 inches wide, she's an old end-holer, so I'm told. I'm pretty sure she would qualify for the senior citizens' discount at Cracker Barrel. Should be fun, or at least entertaining to the rest of the group. Is it just my imagination or am I starting to itch?

I need information and advice. I roamed around the Internet some but didn't find much. And, yes, I'm aware of JR Sweets company.

Specific questions:

1. Anything on the care and feeding of fiberglass, meaning maintenance and repair. The hull seems relatively intact but quite soft when compared to a new Royalex canoe. Again, I don't know fiberglass but had envisioned it to be more rigid. What happens to fiberglass as it ages?

2. I am indeed itching a bit after handling the boat. Tips?

3. I should be okay in general on outfitting as I've been stealing ideas on that for years. One question though, someone mentioned "hypoline" or some such d-ring patches and adhesives. Wild guess on the spelling there. Ever heard of it? Know where I can find it?

4. The boat does not seem to have ever had a center pillar of foam for support. Does that bother you too?

Ain't it all fun?

Thanks for listening.

Ken Dubel

Hi, Ken! It's pretty cool that you are able to take a little time to visit from the "dark side" of boating to visit us. I'm curious as to whose end-holer c-2 you now have. I will not be of a lot of help, but since it is you posting, I thought I would drop a couple of pennies (my $0.02) for you.

Since the boat is quite old, there is only so much work you will want to put into it and keep it serviceable for many more years. Sun exposure and years of use on the river will result in the fiberglass getting soft spots. The boat may also have a thin layup (just a few layers of fiberglass) to help keep the boat light. As long as there is hull integrity (no leaks, seams in good shape, hardly any hull flexion in the water, etc.), the boat should be good for paddling. You MAY want to keep it in easier waters--you know, something less that the Upper Yough or the Gauley! There are other posters here that should have better solutions, so hopefully they will post soon.

As far as the itching is concerned, that is just the fiberglass wearing through. The one thing I now know you DO NOT want to do about the itching from fiberglass is to coat it with more epoxy/resin (like West Systems). Adding more epoxy/resin will only make the boat look uglier and will flake off over time. Don't know how to help you here, except consider applying a wax periodically.

No center pillars? Hmmm. I would think that adding styrofoam pillars can help strengthen the deck and hull, plus add to safety. It's fairly easy and cheap to do this. I recommend getting the thick insulation sheets from your local hardware store (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.). Lay it on the floor with the boat lying on its side on top of the sheet. Place a large "T"-square against the hull and sheet, with a felt marking pen taped to the inside edge of the square that is resting on the sheet. Slide the square along the deck and the hull so you end up creating a "sillouette(spelling?) of the boat on the insulation sheet. Cut out the form using a serrated knife (bread knife?, hack saw blade?) and insert into the appropriate ends of the boat. You may have to trim the form to fit.

And, yes. It is all fun. You are always welcome to call me, PM me if you want to talk further or actually try to get together. I seem to have written quite a bit. There HAS to be something in here that is useful. What else does someone have for "BamBam"?

KNeal (Neal Fleenor)

Seems I hardly ever make it to Richmond anymore.

I'm feeling very iffy on this boat. I'm sure we can have some fun in it and learn a few things but it seems like it wouldn't take much to wrap it around something. At least with the "C" configuration we shouldn't get our legs trapped!

I'll probably do some rudimentary outfitting in it and just mess around.

I'd still like to find some good sources of information on glass boats if anyone cares to chime in.

Thanks all,

Ken Dubel

Your best bet to rejuvenate the C-2 is to apply another layer of fiberglass (preferably S-glass) using epoxy resin. Lay up the hull first, overlapping the seams. Next do the deck, again overlapping the seams. This will stiffen up the soft spots, repair any leaks, strengthen the seams and get rid of the fiberglass rash problem. I did this to a Blackwater C-1 many years ago and used it for another three years before giving it away.

For what it would cost you in materials you could buy an almost new glass end-hole C-2. I just happen to have one that I'll sell for $195. It's a nylon/glass/glass/glass lay-up with the nylon on the outside so that there's no fiberglass rash problem. The only use that it has had are two trips on the Deerfield and one trip down the Grand Canyon. The two halves were mold many years ago then stored inside a barn. I bought the unfinished boat then seamed it with two Kevlar inside seams and three glass outside seams. I also installed an ethafoam wall. All of the outfitting was done with West System epoxy resin. The boat is in Connecticut.

I tried listing the C-2 in the "for sale" section but I kept get error messages.

The laminates used in old whitewater boats typically were a combination of glass and a synthetic material with polyester resin used to hold it all together.

When age has done a job on such laminates, they become soft, almost spongelike, and the resin begins to rub off or even crumble. Of course, impact with riverine features will easily "hole-out" a soft old boat, and one without walls is going to flex a whole lot more than you'll like even without hitting rocks.

Just about any end-holer era c-2 is going to be near the end of its useful life as a whitewater boat for a dynamic paddling dou.

Get the Walbridge book on boat building for information about such things as repairs and outfitting. When the boat building bug has bitten hard enough, ask Davey Hearn for the whereabouts of a C-2 mold sized for your team, and build yourself a strong, light craft to meet your needs.

Until then, the C-2 Jim has sounds like a good boat to knock around in. At less than $200, and assuming it has some reasonable outfitting (saddles, walls, straps) already in place, it will likely serve well for a while.

Check the NRS website for information about Hypalon adhesives, etc. But such things as D-rings are not usually used in C-2s because of their excessive weight. Consider glassing in anchor straps of nylon, rope, etc instead to secure the thigh straps. Lots of outfitting info on this website and in the Walbridge book(s), too.

Thanks for the tips, gang. I had a feeling it would not be a simple matter. Add to all the other challenges, I find none of the four C-1 skirts I tried is small enough for the C-2 rims plus the C-2 rims aren't the same size!

Ken Dubel

OK. Just guessing, but I think end-holers had the cockpits positioned to "fit" the team that paddled the boat. Weight of each paddler was the major consideration, of course. Point is that holes were often positioned and then cut for the original owners and the rims built for/on each hole. Rim molds were often lost, if they were ever made for the deck mold. If the deck was convoluted, a rim mold was fussy to fit, anyway. So, C-2 rims were usually one-off jobs for each hole.

But even more likely, the size of the rim and each hole was a function of the individual builder; with variations occurring according to the number of beers completed before each hole was cut and the rim laid up!

Anyway, for a glass boat, simple homemade neoprene and shock cord skirts should be easy to construct. Or try some cheap nylon skirts to see if you like paddling the boat.

Considering that a pair of well fit (rim and waist) homemade neoprene skirts will run maybe $100 for materials, that $195 C-2 in serviceable condition is sounding better, don't you think? Maybe Jim has a couple of skirts he doesn't need, too?

BTW, no, glass boats don't make you itch if they were properly built and are not worn out. Epoxy resin might cause an allergic reaction, including itching, but that is unusual for most people that have not been exposed to a lot of epoxy products. If the boat is making you itch when you handle it, it means the resin that was used to make the laminate has failed (weakened), probably due to age, UV degradation, or "catastrophic impact." It is no longer holding the glass fibers together, so they are breaking off when your skin rubs against it.

Hate to hi-jack the thread but I'm putting an old end hole C2 on the auction block so check the Boats for Sale section if this tread interests you! Oh since it was given to me its free to a good home! C2 on!

So, who made your C-2? The Noah C-2 was rather flexible because the builder used little or no glass. With walls properly installed, it was adequately stiff, but concern about wrapping would not be misplaced, because the Noah laminate was very tough and unlikely to break.