C-Forum

Does anyone know anything... or have any input on... this?

http://alabamawhitewater.com/forum/phpB ... c.php?t=32

It seems like these days not many open boats shorter than 13'2" show up to races, at least in New England. Is this new "short" class going to have any entries?

Also, a lot of folks double up and race two classes - short and medium. Now they won't be able to do that with their current boats. They will have to get like a Taureau or something.

Another thing - I always thought it was a little weird how the categories at open boat nationals were different than the ones at the New England races (like, what is this "X boat" thing?).

However, I notice a lot of familiar faces on the committee - who is driving this rule change?

Finally, my last question is: how exactly did Patrick Cleary pull off that gunnel-dip and clean that impossible gate that cost me about 14 seconds at the Farmington last weekend? Why is the Ignitor the greatest open boat of all time? Who was really driving that boat - Kaz or Laura (hope i got the name right)? How does Roy feel about third place behind two c-1ers? Is Amy reading this and if so, why were she and Dana racing at the approximate speed of my grandmother? These are just questions . . .

Alden

Is it a coincidence that Kaz's Rumba is 11' 11" long?

Alden,
All very good questions. Answers in no particular order: It was Laura powering our boat. I just kick back and rudder. Pat's gunwale dip must have been a result of too much Irish whiskey the night before. Just kidding Pat. As far as the speed of Dana, same reason. Roy is used to placing 3rd. Sorry Roy, please don't hurt me. Finally, the open canoe slalom committee will be proposing rule changes and voting on them soon. As soon as that occurs I, or Pat will post them here. Now if that has answered any of your questions, buy an Ignitor.
JKaz

Well, first of all, I expect no one wants to read about what Roy is used to doing, not doing, and having done to him.

As far as some dweeb C1ers coming to some dweeb open boat race and kicking some old/slow open boaters' butts, it does remind us that much of open boat slalom racing is a very "big fish, little pond" situation. When some think of rule changes--that is where this line started--it might be easy to get a little overly-concerned with protecting-the-value-of-the medals.

Yes, they are "National Champ" medals...but, it still comes down to who cares to show up. What if Hearn/Lugbill decide to race OC2 master plastic in '06? How about those German brothers who won in C2 at Athens in '04? So, whoever is National Champ in '06 in OC2 rec, might want to keep in mind that there are better OC2 teams out there who chose not to come.

Anyway, Clayton says when the downriver nationals increased the number of classes, their participation also increased. And, it is clear to me that participation is the only true problem in open boat slalom racing.

As far as Pat is concerned, anyone who wants to use his method (low-volume and leaky boat) is welcome to it.

yes, Roy posted! I believe somebody owes me $20, please . . .

(By the way, I am wondering what the attainments are like at Tariffville in a Galasport Shubak? Anyone? What if my hair is thining - does that effect the lefty moves?)

Yes, Pat's boat was slightly leaky but it was way better than that Twister I raced at Esopus with no hip pads. And I definitely had less water in my boat than Dana at the bottom, and possibly less than in my own leaky C-1.

That is true about whoever shows up to Nationals wins and there might be some good people who don't show. I hope to make it this year and maybe even recruit a mixed partner to give roy/jennette, kaz/laura (!) and amy/sonny a little run.

Although . . . in the words of Lecky Haller, "Half of life is showing up" and that is part of what makes a champion anyway.
Alden

I guess the trouble I'm having is the lack of separation of classes.

Take a quantum leap with me here:

Let's say you are a fairly resourceful guy. You could make a boat 11' 11 1/2" to race short, and the exact same design in a 12' 1/2" boat... to race long. The bonafide differences in the boats' performance relative to most OC1 racers is pretty much nada. You're racing the same boat, basically, in two separate classes.

At this point, it seems silly to have separate classes. You may as well eliminate size from the class and just have OC1 race class, any length... you can race anything you feel you would perform best in.

I'm not trying to create strife, just making a point, giving a perspective. Whatever the rules are I'll be there

Now to dump on alden a bit more. He sometimes shows up and borrows boats, in this case mine. He was "nervous" bout paddling a Reactor as it was too twitchy for him. Jesse Cook smokes in it and its too bad he overpracticed and screwed up his shoulder so a race between the two wasn't possible. AB did beat Dana Henry by 13 hundredths of a second, due to Dana sorting out his brain cells for several seconds in a boily hole on the upper section. And I made the impossible gate as Kaz said, the overabundance of Tullamore Dew the night before gave me the shakey Knees required to pull off the dual gunnel dips. (That and my weight in a leaky boat. Now for racing classes discussion. We, as a committee are sorting out a consensus to vote on and many proposals have been bandied about. We need to keep racer numbers up and we made an attempt at this last year by allowing a person to race in up to 7 classes (no more than 3 in one race day). Over the past years, again to keep entries and racers interest up, we have allowed boats in a longer class to race in the shorter ones. The upside is that many who only own a 4 meter boat have also entered the unlimited class. At this time, there are only a few short composite OC's out there and Kaz hasn't made a killing on the Rumba as a short slalom boat. Virtually all of the solo rec boats that are raced are under 4 meters (from the very short Zoom and Preludes to the rapidly gaining popularity Spark). These boats in the hands of a great racer are very competitive in the unlimited race class. And yes, we have allowed the REC boats to race in the RAC class as well, if they feel they can be competitive. Confused yet. It just allows someone who drives along way to race in many classes with his investment rather than having to buy and transport an expensive quiver of boats, which some lucky devils do possess. My personal view is for slower change by following the current rules for eliminating classes (less than 5 boats in the class the previous 2 years gets an up or down vote for retention by the committee). One proposal has boats only being allowed to race in the class which they fit-eliminating the crossover from 4 meter to unlimited etc. We actually did this with the X class a couple years ago-only allowing rodeo boats and x Class boats (Which currently have shown up) to race. As a committe, we are trying to listen to our constituents (mine being the NESS racers) and come up with a reasonable consensus to vote on. With a large committee(14?), its almost impossible to satisfy everyone, as well as the boaters they represent. Phil is doning his job down south, as am I up North asking for input from those who regularly attend the Nationals. The goal being to keep up boater interest and participation. As the chairs listen to the debate and frame the actual vote to be taken (their thankless job) Kaz(as the lightweight AT LARGE rep) and myself will bring the final proposals to be voted upon to this forum, as well as our close constituents for input. And I'll plug his Ignitor, its the 4 Meter slalom boat in history.
My two cents
Pat

I've only done one slalom race & currently do not own an OC. Since this race will only be about 4 hours away I plan to borrow a boat to race. I'll be happy as long as there is a class in which I can paddle whatever boat that I can get my hands on & I get a cool t-shirt You've gotta have a cool shirt that will last more than a few washings.

If I borrow a REC boat, may I also enter the RAC class even if I don't feel that I can be competitive?

Where do you find the dates and places that these races are held in the US ? Also do you have a mixed junior / senior class ?

Al

Never having been exposed to an OC race - there just doesn't seem to be the numbers/interest in the northwest - I forget that there are people with OC race boats who make all the gates and care about medals.

I think most OC paddlers would be shaving their time in 50-second chunks, not fractions of a second.

Taking from the previous thread on OC Nationals, if the goal is to keep up numbers and participation, anything that encourages "normal" rec/Royalex OCs to participate is a good thing.

There are probably many paddlers who would like to try it, but don't have access to intro level races/events and aren't interested in a quiver of boats or medals. There needs to be maximum opportunity just to show up and try the course in whatever canoe you paddle.

If everyone who paddles OC recreationally had access to recreational races, more people would move on to race boats and national events.

Good luck sorting it all out, sounds like you're giving everything lots of thought.

P.

I think the challenge for new racers is that if you have a recreational boat that is not fast and agile it is really hard to run a course, but if you try getting into a race boat it does feel intimidating. It is too bad it is not easier to start, as the New England race crowd is very supportive. Heck, they even loan boats to Alden.

I am grateful with the committee’s long-standing efforts to improve the races and the participation. I don’t have great recommendations for them, but I do have a few thoughts to share:

- Sorry I missed the race, as it would have meant that Roy finished out of the medals and in 4th.

- Attainments in a Shubak are easy, any old guy in 1 of those can pull them off.

- Pat is just sneaky

- Yes, there are faster OC2 teams out there, but there are none better than my son Patrick and me. How do I know? Because we are having the most fun!

- Re: “do you have a mixed junior / senior class”- there is a cadet (under 17) / senior (over 25) class that could use some more boats, so please join us.

Jim

A big slalom problem is having simply too much to choose from. After all, even I had to seriously think before choosing the Farmington Slalom last weekend over the Moosefest (held on the same weekend). I have chosen Moosefest before. I chose the Esopus over the Gauley, while many DC slalom racers did not (which is certainly understandable!)

I think that one good way to stimulate racing in New England would be for the folks to hang the slalom course on the Deerfield as they mentioned they would.

I think another good idea would be to incorporate a slalom on the Deerfield at Deerfieldfest. I know this has been stated before, and that there are problems - but the crowds of boaters are there (lord, are they!) at that time, and it would be good to have a real slalom race then - like possibly one that is on a quite visible part of the river, and one you could register for on-site. (okay, i know, i wouldnt want to run this either . . . maybe we can ship in those dartmouth kids from the mascoma?)

I think that location and timing of races are important. Locationwise, it would be a real good thing to have races again on the West and Deerfield (I know, it's tough, im just saying though). I think that the slalom clinic at the Ten Mile suffers from this. I went there once, and it is not exactly in the middle of any kayaking hotbeds. That might be okay for the established Covered Bridge race, but not for a clinic to its maximum effect.

I always thought a summer race/clinic at Tariffville would not be a bad idea. Let's face it: it is easier to try slalom racing when it is warm out, rather than at Punchbrook when it is snowing. Plus, in the spring everyone is raring to go and new rivers are raging. But by summer everyone is eager for some sort of new diversion when nothing is running. Summer just lends itself to going new places and hanging out outdoors.

Summer races at places like T-Ville or the Deerfield - somewhere central and warm - would be a good idea. I don't think clinics like this need be on class I either - I think there are plenty of folks out there who can already paddle and might want to try a race on class II+ or whatever summer T-Ville is.

Also, I think it is good to offer free instruction there, such as Bert Hinkley taught at Fiddlehead a few years back. Just have someone teach those who want - and have it advertised as such.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts out loud. I realize it takes a ton of work to set up races and race courses. I am going to devote a big spread in my guidebook to the NESS series. It's a small part, I know, but hopefully it will serve as modest advertising for as long as it's around.

Jim: I can imagine the dialogue between you and your wife while choosing a new house in NY this spring:
"So, Jim, which house should we buy? Which house is the best?"
"The one having the most fun."

Speaking of fun, I recently got on your now-local Fish creek in a playboat - incredible! That is one of the best runs ive ever done anywhere.

Pat: Speaking of whiskey, I really missed seeing your dog Tully (Tullie?) at the race!

anyway, later yall
Alden

Alden:

I like the summer suggestion for setting up an environment that encourages participation in races.

FYI- the house choice came down to my wife asking my son which he liked best and he said "I don't know, the last one had a pool and a barn, but this one had snakes and frogs."

We bought the house with snakes and frogs.

I have been on the Fish once at 4' and loved it. My last semester of studying is keeping me off of it and away from the races, but I will make up for that next year. Right now I need to go home and start cutting up some of the trees that came down from 6" of snow on trees that still had leaves. I am also looking forward forward to getting the power back on some time, but I do not know when.

Jim

I agree with Alden that summer is a good time for getting non-racers to try out slalom via a clinic/race combination. In addition to the warmer weather, races tend to be more spread out then and there are typically less rivers running to draw away cruisers.

The Penn Cup races have for years scheduled Saturday PM clinics from 1-3 PM followed by the race on Sunday. The course is typically open for practice before and after the clinic, but not during.

I don't think there is anything wrong with holding the Class II-II+ clinic that Alden suggests, but I would suggest that what is more seriously lacking on the Northeast slalom circuit is opportunities for beginners. The beginner classes on the Blackwater with an abbreviated and simplified course is a good start, but there need to be more opportunities for getting both kids and novice adult racers involved. I paddled class III water before I entered my first slalom race (a Class II race), but I was debris on the course. Paddling a Class II race requires more and different skills than the typical cruiser exercises on Class III water. Those skills are sometimes better learned first on easier water and then practiced in more challenging settings.

John