C-Forum

Caught of my plug cavorting with the Acrobat this evening, as the mold was carried in to the house (not pictured) to be waxed many, many, many,many times....

You'll note that the deck height of the rim around the Acrobat is the same as the top of the Maven turret...

You'll also note the Maven (compared to the Master Cut Acrobat (low cut 185lbs, medium for 165 or so):
1) Is narrower
2) Has a rounder stern
3) Has slightly more rocker
4) Has a more even volume distribution in the hull
5) Has a MUCH larger (in every dimension) cockpit
6) Is lightly shorter (the production Maven should be about 6" shorter than my Master Cut Acrobat, keeping all cuts in the 9-10' range.)

The plug was made of several different coats of gelcoat, before much sanding...hence the sanding through some layers of gel=coat in spots for the interesting colour scheme

It also needed other "minor" finish work due to my fledgeling craftsmanship...thankfully I had a couple of pro boat builders watching over me, and helping out after I made mistakes (yes guys, I will NOT do it that way again, and learn from my mistakes...).




The hull is VERY sweet. Every boater that's looked at it in person has drooled....


Shots of the bows...





Stern shot...note the rounded (a la Viper) stern of the Maven.

Production boats will most likely be slightly shorter than the Plug due to the way the mold came out, and reducing the volume even a minor bit will make the bow and stern much slicier (not that you really need it that way...).

Hopefully the next images posted will be of a boat in the works (most likely early next year).

Adam...posting under the guise of...the Maven....

Thanks for the photos It really is nice to see it next to the master cut Acrobat.
I think it's gonna be tricky in more ways than one I sure hope I'm not too heavy for it. Thanks for the cockpit depth, that'll be nice. Can't wait to try one.

Too heavy for a squirt boat

Actually, I DO think you'll be at the top of the weight range, if it works out as planned (low cut for you when the boat is "full cut").

Looking at it, vs. the Acrobat, yeah, looks scary.

BUT, having boated the prototype, it is a very different boat.

The "narrowness" is not an issue, as many conversion boats are narrower than the Maven...the Acrobat was based on a slalom design, and as such, was slalom width. If you're not racing, you really don't need a boat that wide (you may need a lower saddle though ). (FWIW, I'm planning on a 6 or 6.5" saddle in the boat. Knowing what you (Mike W) get away with in your long Acrobat, you can most likely go higher).

The BIG difference in this boat is the turret. It helps the stability tremendously (all the volume is "up", and acts almost like an outrigger if you're going over one side or another). Cartwheels pivot around it like on an axle.

that said, it IS a small boat. When the images on the "main" maven site were taken I was about 170-175 (so, figure 175-180 in the boat), the boat leaked, and has (for better or worse) increased in volume during the plug-making process. Definitley added a couple gallons of volume, but they can easily be taken away by reducing the hull half of the boat before seaming.

Yeah Mike, it's going to be interesting

I think you and Scott B. should enter one into the Jimicup or other mystery contest

Man, I want to get in one of those, looks awesome! That thing looks like it'd go down smoooooothly....perhaps......

ASSUMING that "production" goes OK, I'm hoping to have 2 boats done for spring ("my" boat, and a "demo" boat:) (that is, of course, unless I have one or two random visitors who pool test and desperately want one for this coming season. I can afford to build 2 myself, but that's about it methinks. The folks that have helped me thus far have indicated interest in producing them, if it's only a few (5-10 I think...not that I expect that much demand quite frankly)).

Is anyone in the WVA / VA / PA area up to searching for a good "park and play" spot for the Sunday of the Armada (whenever we hold it this year...) that is playable by surface boats (surfing, etc...) and has a nice mystery spot? I have yet to do more than an "almost chest deep" intentional mystery (the unintentional ones in the middle of the rapids we won't talk about ), so I'd really like to work on my technique, and have a known spot to test the Maven out at. Who knows, the Acrobats, Edge, and Oxygen might have to make their way to the Armada too.... The thought of Mike W. in the Oxygen is even more priceless than in a Maven . The Maven you (hopefully) have a chance of "controlling". The Oxygen...well, stability is not one of it's strong points. Or attributes for that matter .

Just a thought....

The cheat is the home of squirtboating, hopefully that'd be at a good level. The gauley, obviously, has tons of mystery spots. You should bring that boat down to Cowbells on the Nolichucky, I bet she'd drop there!

Well now the Cheat is a couple hours drive from the NBofP standard site for the Armada. Water levels will dictate suitability but there is usually something to be had. It’s also a short distance from the Lower Yough and very close to the Sandy’s so those not dropping will have options too. For a location and details check out http://awa.org/rivers/id/2346 then for sinkabiliy details look at http://67.46.8.34/~customkayak/html/che ... r__wv.html and see it http://hmarin.mystarband.net/default.htm.
Adam the boat is looking sweet! You’ve done a nice job and I look forward to checking it out in person! Paul C.

mighty Potomac at Mather gorge. Lots of good Mystery Move spots in a deep water gorge no matter what the water level. Try this link for details and documentation of the possibilities;

http://www.potomacpaddlers.com/squirt.php

Adam the boat looks SWEET!

Good point TomA!
This might be more convenient for many of the attendees and takes things back to the Concordia local of 99.
It can be played either way based on water levels and attendees desires (I can make both locals fairly easily so i say leave it up to the travelers)!
Would this make it a 2 or 3 day event? I’m getting the faint scent of a multi-day C-extravaganza!

Care to share a picture of the mold? Most paddlers have not seen one. You have documented the design and plug making process well. Molding is yet another job that might be interesting to those that have not had the pleasure!

As for waxing the mold repeatedly, get some advice from the more experienced builders or your release system supplier about how many coats (and amount of wax per coat) to use. There is a point where a wax buildup will cause a severe dullness to the boat's finish. After all that plug sanding and mold polishing, it is a bit of a drag to have to strip the mold after only a few parts have been produced.

Keep up the good work!

Below are the two halves of the mold. The boatbuilder who is helping me has a different theory around molds than I'm used to, but it works for him, so I'll go with the expert opinion in the room . You'll note the mold doesn' t have a huge "flange" around it (that's the main difference).

It IS difficult to see the shape an nuances in a flat image (especially in bad light with a digital camera...), but you get the general idea.

In case anyone is curious, the bow is closest to the photographer. and yes, the deck is on the left



Regarding waxing, the mold release I'm applying needs to be applied in 12-15 coats, a minimum of 4-5 hours apart. I'm waxing twice a day for a week, so I'm aiming for 14 coats. The first piece out of the mold will be a gel-coated one, then on to a boat or two:).

Thank you all for your encouragement and kindness

its certainly cool, and i like the added size of the cockpit to accommodate people with large legs, ie me in a race boat. bet its a blast to paddle.
cheers
-isaac

Thanks for the mold photos. You have done an excellent job on the finish...it is quite glossy and should produce very nice parts! The work to get it too that level of smoothness will only be appreciated by those that have done the deed themselves!

No flange, eh? Haven't done it that way myself. I wonder if two things are lost by doing it that way:

1. A flange adds stiffness to the mold that will minimize warping and twisting. A flange also allows a somewhat thinner mold to be made, saving on construction materials and total mold weight. A flange facilitates mold storage and transport. A flange is also a good place to attach a frame for your mold. I have found a frame to be very useful on production molds. Working "inside the mold" is much easier when the mold is solidly supported, rather than in slings.

2. Without a flange, vacuum bagging will likely be a challenge.

What do the much more experienced professional builders that have been guiding you say is the advantage of making a flangeless mold? Why is it their preferred method?

Do you still attach a flange form to the plug when constructing the deck and hull molds? How did you get the edges (seam lines) of the molds consistent and "straight"?

(Please know that following your odyssey into boat building is my pleasure. Living vicariously through your descriptions and photos is as interesting, but not nearly as satisfying, as doing it again myself.)

Thank you for the kind words, it's not perfect, but really, really nice. (and now that I've seen production molds, I know they are rarely perfect either ).

The theories behind the flange-less mold:
1) Quicker to build
2) no thought required of how to make flange on this pesky boat (there is a "line" left by masking tape that denotes the correct fit shape / size)
3) The mold will be attached to horses and be part of a solid stand (it IS much easier to work..you're right! Not to mention less worries about twisting, etc...)
4) It's not a big piece. If it were large (say, a full size slalom boat) the materials required to make a good stiff mold would have necessitated a flange. But being shorter, and narrower, it was fairly easy to keep it stiff (also, you can't see the other side of the mold with the "ribs")

We are not planning on vacuum bagging with this mold. This will produce perhaps 10 boats (I'd be shocked if the demand were for more than 5, if that, quite frankly. There just aren't that many C1 squirt boaters out there, let alone those that can afford a new boat (no idea as to the price yet folks, but I do know what materials cost these days...yikes. It will be cheaper than a PS or Murky boat though). If demand were high I'd make a new plug from this mold, re-polish it, and make a new, high-production quality (with flanges and vacuum ports) mold. Or, rather, I'd make a new plug and send it to PS Composites or Murky Water, and let the folks who would end up building the boats do it).

It's been a great experience, and I'm afraid (and Sara is very afraid) that I'll be doing this again in the future. I just don't know how the design will need to be refined yet, or if I'll be trying something else entirely. It is A LOT of work. And the sanding is INCREDIBLY BORING. But it is also very rewarding, and I suspect I will feel it even more so if I can sit in an eddy this summer and have someone ask "Dude, where'd you get the boat" and i can respond "I designed it" . Ok, so that will never happen. Most kayakists avoid me already .

Time for coat number 4 in an hour:)