C-Forum

Well, 'tis time I guess. I know Mike is probably checking the board every 30 seconds . And he should be...

A NOTE UP FRONT: IF YOU WANT TO WATCH A VIDEO PLEASE DOWNLOAD IT TO YOUR MACHINE (right click)-if you only watch it once it won't be a problem, but a few too many times and I'm not sure if CBoats.net bandwidth will be able to take it!

So, here we go: http://www.cboats.net/images/maven/pool ... Launch.MOV (1.2mb)



Last night myself and LEW had one of the best pool sessions / flatwater sessions I've probably ever had. Admittedly, it was the boats. Not only did I bring the Maven, but also my Master Cut Acrobat (cut low for 185), and LEW brought his SWEET Oxygen (if those two words can be used together).







Needless to say all was nervous, but I must say the Maven was almost perfect, and was actually almost exactly as I suspected.

http://www.cboats.net/images/maven/pool ... trokes.MOV (10mb) (big file, but worth the download.)

A quick run down, via boat:

The Maven is more stable than an Oxygen, less than an Acrobat.
Maven has more forward speed and "glide" than either of them as well...by quite a bit IMhO. It also turns and carves better (hull shape)

The Maven resists pearling MUCH more than the other boats, due to it's rocker. this helps A LOT.

The Maven is much less work to paddle-with every strock in the Acrobat or Oxygen you can feel the pressure of the water holding you back-the Maven cuts cleanly through the water like a spear. That's the whole reason for the width....

Both Larry and I found the Maven more comfortable. We were thinking it was knee position, but afterwards I realized it might be due to the length of the cockpit. It DOES need some more foam underfoot though, as a few of my rather sorry looking toes can attest.

Trim wise, below are several images-I'm 160 (+ a bit for gear, but that'll be the case for everyone), Larry is 145, and our "test subject" is 220 (best we could do mike).



Needless to say, 220lbs may be "a bit" much for this boat, unless you want to sink all the time. The water was right at the cockpit rim, until he shifted, water came in (skirt was a bit big), and the boat REALLY sank. Glad I waited a week to let it cure well!

You may have noticed I used "almost" a bit. For me, at 160, there is a bit too much volume in the bow and stern to slicily cartwheel (you'll see this in the video's as well). With tweaked outfitting and a bit of commitment, it is very doable. However, I'm going to take 1/2" to 3/4" out of the next boat hull and seam it that way, so my boat is a bit slicier. This will also cut down on the volume, of course....



I would say the boat, in full cut, maxes out at 190-200, unless you truely want a dedicated mystery boat (e.g. the kind that's under water all the time).

The Maven is NOT for everyone...you need a really dry skirt, and to be comfortble in a boat with a more limited scope of primary stability (it is very stable...for a few degrees side to side). MUCH more stable than the Oxygen, and any wildwater boat. I was actually presently surprised the the stability. The fore and aft forgiveness (due to the rocker) helps a lot, as it is a very solid platform for strokes.

I'll post more as I continue to mull it over.

Hopefully Larry will post his thoughts as well, both positive and negative.

Yes Mike, I do believe you would have A LOT of fun in this boat, though I'm guessing we'd need to put the cockpit rim 1" further out on each side for comfort (just because kayak squirtists are uncomfortable don't mean we have to be!).

Please post any questions you have on performance and I'll answer them as best I can. I do look forward to getting it on a wave at some point, as the hull is made for surfing....

That's awesome Adam, great pictures and videos !

Max. weight for a full cut boat is 190-200 lbs...and I am ~195 lbs...hmm....gets me thinking... ...I definitely have to try this boat !

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

SWEEEEEET
Thanks for putting the big guy in it!
How do the cartwheels comapare to the master cut Acrobat?
I think you're right on the length of the cockpit. That's the problem that I have with both of my Acrobats.
Is there really any room in the turret to increase the width of the rim? Looks like if you cut out, you'll also be cutting down. I'm going to measure the cockpit width of my boats tonight & see what works for a fat guy like me.
I couldn't download the movies I'll try them on my home machine tonight.
I'm pretty sure that I want one.

Congratulations! That is awesome. And when somebody pulls up next to you in an eddy and asks "What is that?! Where did you get it?!" You get to say "It's my own design and I made it myself".

Actually I can easily add 1" of cockpit width ON EACH SIDE without lowering the turret at all. There is a "lip" on the interior of the Maven that I left on purpose for best water flow and dryness (that was the theory anyway). Otherwise, the rim will be up to the outside of the turret, which isn't bad, it's just like the Acrobat, Groove, etc...

With my weight I couldn't get a full cartwheel-the bow and stern were not slicy enough. With a bit of practice I dont' think it would be a problem at my weight, and for heavier folks I think you'd be fine. For "my" boat I will be cutting down the bow and stern a bit. I may cut down teh turret height a bit as well...we'll C. I suspect i you wanted a slicier boat we could take a little volume out of the bow and stern and leave the turret area alone....

It IS a fun boat, and can't wait to get on a good seam in it ...especially one cut for my weight

I do plan on bringing to the Armada, and I'll most likely tweak the outfitting before then.

One thing I did note-with the boat being a bit narrower, I didn't feel I needed the "beaver tails" like I do in the Acrobat and other wider boats.

looks very cool. neat to see it in action. :lol:
its a very interesting design, and it looks like the ends to helpstay on top with the rocker.
very cool
hope the cut down version goes well
cheers
-isaac

How easy is it for you to cartwheel your master cut Acrobat? I can cartwheel my 1/2" cut & master cut on flatwater. I have about 30 lbs on you, but like you pointed out, the Maven has more volume at the end. Man, that's a hot looking boat

Mike- I trust you have drool guards on your keyboard!! I can hear you panting all the way up here in Richmond!! Down boy, I said down!!

Adam- as my 13 yo would say- that's SWEET! Great job with the boat- now, please build me a full cut Viper for under $400. Any color is fine

I can easily start a nice flatwater cartwheel in my master cut with no paddle strokes . BUT, I am used to the boat.

Your best bet, Mike, is to try it out. In a month or so I hope to have my Maven done, and perhaps one other...two other if you know you want one:). But your best bet is to either:
a) wait until ye armada
b) get up here

If you were planning a vacation up here anyway, it would be a good time to check out the demo boat. Otherwise, if business takes you up this way we may be able to work something out...even in winter, but I can't promise anything unless I know you're seriously considering coming up.

Another option would be to send the boat, via boaters, down for you to try out. This demo boat is NOT a full out play layup, but is useable for testing and getting an idea of what the boat performs like in full cut.

So, PAC, care to come Teleskiing and take the Maven away with you?


For anyone interested, it looks like we'll have 2 purchase options:
1) We'll sell just the halves-you can seam it and build the rim yourself! It's not THAT hard, and by cutting out all the really tedious annoying labor I'm guessing we may be able to pull off a price a couple hundred LESS than a NEW plastic boat. Even cheaper for an all glass layup .
2) Complete boat. More details to come. I would gestimate it will be close to the price of a Millbrook boat, but it may be more or less, especially depending on layup.

The only thing I can "guarantee" is that the boats WILL NOT be as pretty as a PS Composites or Murky Water boat. Those folks really know their way around gel-coat...our layups (for now) are going to be pigmented resin, with metal flake as an option (will not be "solid" metal flake, I think, but we'll see how some tests on the next Maven go). It will also not be as light as a Millbrook boat-Kaz has that pretty well dialed in.

If interest continues to build (and quite frankly I doubt it will-it is a SWEET boat, but for a very, very limited market, and I know that) I will approach PS or Murky...the boat would be even sweeter, a bit heavier, and most likely much prettier. Mind you, what I have in mind for the next Maven will look VERY hot in my mind, but I like the look of carbon fiber:)

I will not be building these-I'm going to leave it up to the professionals who I have built 1 boat with, and plan on building mine as well.

More details as they become important, and known! We're going to see how long it takes to build each stage of the next Maven, and take it from there....

If you think you might want one, e-mail me... adam@cboats.net

I will be building a Maven SOON!
The boat disproves two common C-1 myths:
1) C-1s must be wider than kayaks to be stable.
The Maven is narrower than many of todays kayaks, yet we easily slid off the edge of the pool and into the water. I wasn't even bothered by the fact that the saddle was no longer attached by the time I got my turn! Primary stability was quite good considering it IS a squirt boat. For those of us who also paddle open boats, forget about that term secondary stability, it IS a squirt boat.
2) C-1s must be unconfortable
For some strange reason, my feet never got sore or went to sleep!! I even had plenty of room to wear my size 10 NRS Kickers. Maybe it was the "Turret" area, or it was the way my feet were aligned in the narrower boat. I only got out because I wanted some time in the Acrobat for comparison before we had to go.

The full cut in the pool required proper technique and full commitment to get much of a squirt for me at 145 lbs. Throw in some current and an eddyline, and I'm sure I could get it vertical with not much effort.
The boat is surprisingly fast and took little effort to keep it going straight. After paddling the Oxygen, it was nice to be able to reach all the way and take a full stroke. Turning was also easy, just pivot.
Adam did a really great job on this first boat. Both the deck and the hull looked really smooth and shiny, I did not notice any flaws. Though the seams were not up to P.S. standards, I would be quite happy if it were my boat. The cockpit rim was also solid. When looking at the boat upside down, all of the lines of the hull blend perfectly. I figure at minimum wage, the time Adam must have spent on sanding alone would pay for a boat!
The only thing I can come up with for criticism, is the considerable rocker caused the ends of the boat to stick up more than I am used to. I have a feeling though, that this feature may come in handy to prevent unexpected pearling. Mike W. would have to run Robin's Nest on a bow stall on purpose?
Oh yeah, it needs some metalflake!!
Adam, thanks for opportunity to enjoy the first Maven.
I must also thank "Henasane" for having the courage to stuff his rather large carcass in for the photos. He did so with little prodding, and even after he asked "you want me to get in it IN THE WATER?"
I think with a better sprayskirt, the Maven might have actually sort of floated him?
The best I can do for now is to post this link to some of my photos. I hope it works.

LEW
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cboater1/ ... /my_photos

Larry, I can't see your photos I get this "Please sign in and try again or check with the owner of the file."

When I went to my yahoo photos & substituted your id, I get this "Sorry, cboater1 has not enabled any public albums in their account. "

A big thanks to "Henasane" for getting into the Maven It's tough to get folks to try any c-boat, I can only imagine the looks that the Maven gets

Keep in mind, my bow stall through Robins Nest was in a 1/2" cut Acrobat. MUCH more volume than my master cut. I also outwiegh you by nearly 1/3 (45 bs).

I got the video to work on my home computer. It almost looks like it's riding it's own wake Neat design

I was thinking of just telling you to build me one, but after reading y'all's comments & seeing the video I'll have to wait till I can try it. I'm thinking a little volume out of the ends might be a good idea. I guess I'll either try it General Clinton weekend or at the Armada. I can make my decision then & maybe pick it up around down-river nationals week. Provided that's enough time to have it built.

I don't know much about boat building, but I'm thinking that pigmented resin is a good idea. I was recently thinking of that for a hull layup. Probably easier to repair. You can put bunches of metalflake in it right?

I'm with Larry on this point..."Oh yeah, it needs some metalflake!! "

Oh, Brendan, I don't know why the keyboard hasn't shorted out...yet. I've had to mop drool several times in here

Sorry,
I made a hasty post the other night. Here is the link I've enabled it.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/cboater1/ ... /my_photos

The "big guy" is my good friend Rich M of Adirondack Paddle'n'Pole. If in the Albany area stop in, he has a good selection of paddling and skiing gear. He is also a walking guide book for the Adirondacks and surrounding areas. His E-alias is Nehasane (which I took liberty to misspell for a little humor) is native american for "beaver crossing the river on a log." His "rather large carcass" gets around extremely well in the mountains and on the water. Check out his adventures at:
http://www.onewithwater.com/page6.html

Larry

Thanks Larry, that worked Looks like the Maven actually floats higher than the master cut Acro. The ends anyway. hmmm.

Nehasane really gets around. Neat trip reports on his site. Cool photos too

Hi Adam

That boat looks super cool! Don't tell Jo, but what do you think shipping to Europe would cost?

Actually, right now I'm looking for a C1 downriver...if anyone knows of one for sale cheap in Europe let me know...

Cheers,
Matt

Be careful what you wish for Adam I might just take U up on that offer! THe boat and its performace looks Sweet - sort of cut for my build. He, he, he! The veiw is nice - looks to be very stable - I can't wait for the open H20 testing! Very nice job and good reporting too (Adam and Larry)!

Mike I can hear the panting all the way up here! LOL