Creeking - Low volume or high?

[MarcB]

I'm wondering if it's just personal preference or whether there's really places you can't physically get down in a low volume boat in a narrow class 4-5 creek and you could in a higher volume boat. I saw a comment on here that a low volume boat might kick out of a hole where a high volume boat would stick. But seems like everybody leans toward higher volume boats for creeking. I'm wondering because I'm just getting back into a slasher after 30 years off from C-1 paddling. 30 years ago I paddled a Hahn (very high volulme) and the word creeking wasn't used, it was just white water, period. This slasher might have been a mistake (price was right) but I've gotten attached to it, tweaking the rigging to get it comfortable and getting it in the pool and getting my roll back. It's going to be different sitting deeper in the water (I'm 200lbs), but I'm looking forward to getting back into some rapids soon. It seems to a hardhead like me that once you get used to what the boat's going to do, you should be able to take it about anywhere through class 5. I'd like some feedback, maybe prevent me from making a big mistake, thanks, Marc

[NSOC1]

I don't paddle a c-1, but I have never heard of wanting a low volume creekboat. I think people want to be able to resurface quickly after drops. I have heard many good things about the Dagger Mamba as a conversion, also maybe the Robson Finkenmeister. I've never heard anything bad about the mamba, from a kayaker or a c-1er--but then again I've never paddled c-1, just OC1

Nate

[Sir Adam]

It all depends on where the volume is. Most folks like high volume boats for creeking so they resurface quickly after a drop. Boats are getting SHORTER, however, which allows you to catch more micro-eddy's and reduce the risk of pinning. That's the #1 reason I WOULD NOT creek in a Slasher-I know of a number of incidents where paddler's have died because their boat "penciled in" and bow pinned. The most epic case I'm aware of was on the Bottom Moose, where a paddler pinned in a pothole. They literally blasted a side route to divert the water (which is today's sneak route) to get the body out.

A shorter, higher volume boat would not do that. A Hahn would not have done that (too high volume). An RPM would not have (too short), but the combination of long and low volume is not ideal for creeks.

The Slasher is one of the boats I really learned on. It is certainly not a favorite of mine (for a slalom-style boat I'll take a composite slalom boat, or better yet a squirt boat any day of the week), but it is good for having fun cruising and running big water, or mild creeks (just no drops...at your weight I suspect you'd pencil in on 3'ers, though it is obviously very drop-dependent.) In the end, it all depends on your definitions I guess....

[TomAnon]

Welcome Back to the C, MarcB! Enjoy your Slasher! Make a note for June 3 & 4 on your calender for the North Branch Armada. You can then try out a bunch of different boats to start looking for something that fits your style. See this thread for more info:

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=4517

[MarcB]

OK, thanks, I get the idea, bad boat to poke your nose into something, and I gotta admit, since the boat will be new to me, I'm gonna have to take it easy until I see how easy the nose goes down. Guess I'll get another boat for going over drops, everybody seems to agree the cascade's ok for that and I got a lead on one. A lot of the playing I used to do was sticking my nose into holes (upstream), trying to do enders. Anybody ever get into trouble with the slasher doing that? Marc Bumgardner

[Jim]

MarcB:

I think:

1. The Slasher works fine with sufficient skill. Once upon a time it was seeing lots more creeks (when the only other option was a Gyramax), but there are many easier options now.

At 185 pounds I find it handles well on 3+/4- runs and that is my comfort level. Back in the day I saw good paddlers doing tougher stuff with a Slasher.

2. That little upturn in the bow does seem to help keep the boat up if you use your momentum properly.

3. We should hook up. I moved to Utica a half year ago and I have lots of local rivers to try out in my Slasher. I also have other toys you will probably fit in.

[Jim]

Oh yeah- you also asked about enders and the Slasher is GREAT for old-school enders.

[Jan_dettmer]

...There is no doubt that a lot of stuff can be done.... Whether or not thats a good idea depends on you views and skill level.

Personally, on hard runs (for my personal skill level), I like to not worry about my boat at all but rather the lines I have to stick.
If screwing up a move means injury or death (as is often the case on class 5) I rather paddle a forgiving boat with lots of margin for error.

Actually, some playboats are great for certain creeking runs, since they are so short. Short (e.g. 7 feet and under) always boofs nice which keeps you out of trouble. At the same time though, for the length, a lot of recent playboats are pretty high volume.

One can't only look at volume only... have to look at length, edges, etc. also.

I have not been on a creek where higher volume was a disatvantage. As long as you keep your boat straigth and don't drop into holes sideways, you should be fine even with large volume boats like a Charger or big Nomad.

However, if you paddle really big water, it can be nice to have a boat you can "dive" underneath holes with.

I would suspect that the Slasher is really hard to boof. It's long and heavy. Thats a bad combination for making boofs on creeks. Most likely, you'll have to use a lot of rock boofs to get the bow up.

...just my 2 cents
Cheers, Jan

[sbroam]

As a long time Slasher-er of similar size (weight, at least) I will chime in and echo some previous comments. It's a great boat but I have not and would not run it on anything steep and "pinny". I'm also not excited about anything too technical that might be "broachy" - I've hung up a couple of times in shallow, technical stuff, momentarily broached. That aside it is great for medium flows on up - enders superbly (that flat deck), and is squirtable (even without squashing the stern). At 200#, you get to apply "dense boat theory" even in a big old school surface boat like this.

She ain't the perfect boat for everybody and she does tend to be a harsh mistress (oh, those edges), but she is rugged and makes everything else seem easier to paddle...

Might be time to get the girl off the rack and myself on the river...

[MarcB]

Thanks for all the info, I'm really out of touch and all of this helps. I paddled in the 70's and I was scratching my head reading about "squirt" etc here. I figured out what that means. Boofing I'm still figuring out, guess it's falling over a ledge and smacking into the back roller at the bottom, gotta admit I got no idea what a "rock boof" is, trying to hit a rock? ouch! my knees! and no clue what "dense boat theory" is, hmmm, like submarine? maybe it's time to design a boat with variable volume and compressed air driven fill chambers......?adjustable ride....only a matter of time, I bet. Can't keep up with all the boats, when I paddled, you either paddled a Hahn or a Czech boat. I do see that I can use the slasher for most river running, so that's good. Also got a lead on a Hahn up for grabs around Pittsburgh. Glass is great, but the Hahn I had was hard to turn compared to the slasher. Hard to get excited about a cascade when it weighs almost 50lbs. Marc

[MarcB]

Jim the pain boater, yeah I'd like to get out and do some rivers when it warms up, but I'm going to be early on the learning curve in the splasher so gotta work up to it. Right now I'm just going to the pool here in Syracuse every week and working on my roll. It was nonexistant the first week, but rolling 5 out of 6 times by week 3, would have been 6 but my shoulder was sore. Going tomorrow night after a week off and see if it's 10 out of 10. Figure I'm going to need that roll automatic learning with the edges on this boat, planning on spending some upside down time. You can email me at MKBDVM44@AOL.COM Marc Bumgardner

[John Coraor]

Marc:

As a fellow old-schooler who has also experienced a long (20-year) hiatus in my paddling, I can identify with the dual problems of reacquiring rusty boating skills and catching up on the current paddling terminology and equipment. (My first C-1 experience was also in a Hahn.)

I'm now about 2 1/2 years into the relearning curve and can say that those skills do come back, although the extra years and poundage have taken their toll. So hang in there!

I wouldn't worry about the Slasher not being a great creeker until you've regained enough of your boating skills to consider challenging some steep creeks. By then, you'll know whether you want another kind of boat and have a better idea of what to look for. The available choices may even have changed by then!

Great to have you back!

John