C-Forum

Sorry - I didnt really have time to edit these rolling vids, package them all together, put some alternative rock music, invent some production company (say- Grassroots Productions.com), and publish it across paddling sites for self-promotion.... maybe someday.

But for now, If you can bear some rough vids, with splashing, and a very proud wife, feel free to look at these vids...

http://vvcc.canoeontario.ca/gallery/c1_oc1_rolling

I'd like some feedback on the back-deck roll vid:

http://vvcc.canoeontario.ca/albums/c1_o ... I_1985.avi

... It looks alot works IMO than I think it is... but I'm concerned that I'll try to do this in current and rip my shoulder out... Am I doing the back deck roll entirely wrong?

Thanks! Mike.

Mike, right on, your rolls look pretty good.

For the normal roll, try to put less weight on your bow. As is, you might end up in a bow stall in current.

The great thing about a back deck roll is, that it starts on the back deck.
I mean, you start your roll in the normal set-up position. However, I'd only doa back deck roll when I am flipping an already am on my back deck.

I'd say you want you body closer to your back deck when you start the roll. Try flipping when you are on your back deck...

Also, I like the roll better where you start on your back-deck and end up on the front deck. It's really fast since you don't need to set up and you also have the advantage of not exposing your shoulder.
If you flip over while on the back deck, start a sweeping low brace right from the back deck and finish on the front deck.
This kinda happens intuitive on the river when you flip while on your back deck and your roll gets faster and faster.
You can even roll without getting your head wet:
By throwing your upper body on the back deck, you build up a lot of spin momentum. Just add a little sweeping stroke and you'll be upright before you know it. When you do this off a drop, it looks like a barrel roll

For the double pump, give more edge. and engage your stern harder. That gives you more momentum to drive the bow down.
You can also try to just paddle forward into a bow stall. To stay vertical, put your upper body as low (into the water) as you can.

Cheers, Jan

I wish the pool I go to was that empty!!!!!!
But then again when you've got around fifteen kayakers coming for lessons, you need that many teachers, then everone else.

Nate

It's the advantage of having pool sessions during the Superbowl!

Some of us have our priorities

Thanks, Jan for the comments! I'll give those tips a try.

Mike,

The videos are real good looking! Is there anyway I could get a copy? I am trying to gather as many sample of videos, in particular on rolling, to eventually use for an instructional site I have been thinking about.

BTW the Jackson Super Fun looks good! The trim appears to be set pretty well. That bow on those is real short so they want to dig in and dive on you with very little provocation.

Tom

The trim appears to be set pretty well.

Mike, How far from the back of your cockpit rim is the back of your saddle?

It looks like your back deck roll is on a high brace? I think the high brace will always be hard on the shoulder when doing it without the aid of a favouring current? When I go under my stern deck (OC-1) I still come up on the low brace.

I think they are both "back deck rolls," and the high brace is used more when your in a hole?

I'm learning here too. Thanks for sharing the vids.

P.

Thanks Yarnell - Will try the 'low brace' option... cant imagine how to do it... i think I'll need to wait until I'm upside down, underwater.

Tom, feel free to use the vids. Check or money order is fine. 10 cents per download? paid monthly please. joking ...but feel free to use em

The saddle is approx 8" from the cockpit rim. Jamie Dors did it up... he basically measured the length of the boat, divide by two. I got the impression that all boats were that way!

It is a short boat - around 7', really fat in the front... it's my excuse for not being able to hold the bow stall for any length of time...

I'm at 240 lbs, gives you an idea on how it sits for a big guy... the cockpit digs into my thigh, that's my biggest complaint right now... I come home every time with a charlie horse on my left leg.

Hi, Mike. Thanks for the video. Its pretty good stuff! The roll you do in the video shows you finishing on a high brace--I've heard that called a "shovel" roll (at least that is what I remember-- I think --I guess--hmmm )). Dave M. (co-originator of our cforum) told me slalom racers used to use that roll as a forward stroke when they flipped so they could keep the boat moving forward. At least that is what I can remember--I think

Try this: flip to your offside with your chest facing down and swing your paddle around toward the stern (if your a leftie, swing the paddle around to your right and toward the stern) and hold your t-grip against your chest/stomach.

Feather the blade so it stays on the surface and does not dive down and try to keep the paddle sweeping with you as you pass under the stern (I find my t-grip is pushed down underwater, away from my chest)

Throw the hip snap as you sweep back to your onside and finish on the low brace.

This is a really fast roll and when you get good at it, you can keep your face above water the whole time .

Now that I've said all this (which I tend to do when I post a reply ), search for related articles. I seem to recall this subject coming up before.

Have fun with it,
KNeal

Ha! I just looked over earler posts and saw that Jan has already said what I'm wanting to say. Hmmm. I'll go ahead and post this anyway.

[note: this discussion may or may not be applied to boats longer than 13' ]

ok, Jan, KNeal, so my "back deck roll" was more of a 'hack' invention I'd say than a back deck roll... A yakker at the pool session was showing me the true back-deck roll - almost exactly the same in a c1 - except they have one blade hanging out pointlessly in the air the whole time.

I nailed it once, and you're right - it's pretty intuitive once you get it... I realized (esp after watching my yakker cohort) that I really have to work on putting a lot of energy into the twist/to makeit succyessful. Also - my paddle seems to somehow dive... I think I'll be able to tweek it - I think I just have it angled incorrectly - but thanks again for the advice.. - my goal for next week is to do a back deck roll and keep my hair dry doing it

Mike.

Ahh, learning from kayakers... that explains the high brace!

I think Jan and Kneal were both also describing the traditional low-brace canoe roll.

Look at other canoe rolling videos or instruction books and compare that (low brace) roll to the high brace one that you're doing. It has its place, but you should also find your low-brace roll, as it will probably come in handy more often, and doesn't stress your shoulders in the same way.

You can still go under your back deck to the low-brace roll: once you're under and on to your onside, just flip your power face over and sweep forward.

P.

I may have to eat my words. Apparently low-brace rolls are passe?

In the current edition of Rapid magazine they instruct/promote a high-brace roll for OCs as the fastest way to get upright.

I can see it in a C-1. But I still think it's looking for (shoulder) trouble in an OC, although I guess less so as they get smaller and smaller, but big guys in bigger boats should be careful.

Anyone else surprised/concerned in the promotion of the high-brace OC roll?

I'll try it again, with caution.

P.

I want to figure out how to do it.....but..... as others have said, I am not sure why to so it.

why am I wrong to think that there is much greater shoulder exposure and chance of injury with the high brace?

Is is more efficient in some way? chris Kelly

Rapid magazine was making the argument that the low-brace roll is much slower, and will give you a slurpee headache in cold water, while the high-brace roll is (supposedly) much faster.

He says, and I'm definitiely paraphrasing, that worries about shoulder injuries are because big, old OC-1s were big, wide and heavy. Supposedly new, narrow, small, modern boats can roll more easily.

In the photos he's paddling a Zoom. I also wonder if he really got up in that series of photos, in the 3rd of 4 photos his head and shoulders are already way out of the water, making it look unlikely.

But other than trying it briefly in the pool, and stopping because felt like I'd have to muscle it on my shoulder, I have no experience with an OC high-brace roll. Interested to know what others think of this comparison and recommendation in Rapid.

P.

Pat, I have not read the rapid mag article yet...

A roll from the back deck is super fast. And yes, I do it in a low brace.
I can high brace roll but exposure for shoulders is too much.
Also, you expose your elbows more and you really want to wear elbow pads
if you roll like that on shallow stuff.

I doubt that I can roll faster on a high brace. My back roll from the back deck is
def. fast enough for my taste.

One good thing to learn is to finish the roll off with a forward stroke rather than sweeping all the way. That saves you some good time, too and gets you back into combat position.
For that I slice my paddle out of the brace into a forward stroke while I still lean extremely forward. On the stroke, I righten my upper body.

Cheers, Jan

Im still struggling w/ the back-deck/low brace roll.... the traditional OC roll in a c1 is a peice of cake but the back deck roll you speak of Jan is hard for somereason :-/

I tried the 'highbrace' roll in an OC after doing it in a c1 and couldnt pull it off... It was in an Ocoee - maybe smaller boats are better - but Scott MacGreggor talks about unlearning your traditional low-brace roll to do the high brace roll....


I wholeheartedly agree - finishing the roll with a forward stroke as opposed to completing the sweep rocks.... in a c1 it seems to have the benefit of also completing the roll, and leveling the c1... if I don't I end up a little bow heavy....
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