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More rolling: OC-1 to C-1

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:04 pm
by yarnellboat
I've understood/read that C-1s are easy to roll compared to "real canoes". . .

From a current post:
...if you can roll the open boat, rolling the C1 should come pretty easily.
rolling a c-1 so easy ( compared to Oc) that sometimes I roll all the way over again.
I'm sure many others have given similar advice and made similar statements.

But for me, I've just taken my new C-1 conversion (WS Score) to the pool, and I couldn't roll the thing.

Compared to the OC roll (Outrage), I felt like at least these 3 things were happening:
1) I can't find my "90degrees-from-the-hull-square-the-shoulders" set-up position, because the freaking' little boat follows around my every move. I'm like a dog chasing its tail.
2) I'm used to a slower, more integrated OC roll; but with the C-1, the slow hip snap doesn't get me anywhere. I have to be more agressive with a snap.
3) Often the elbow of my top hand hits the deck and keep me from completing the roll.

Although I managed some shakey rolls in the end, I did not find it to be a natural or easy transition.

Any tips on rolling a C-1 for somebody coming from OC-1? A quicker, more agressive hip flick is obviously a key.

I don't really want to hit the river much without knowing I've got a shot at rolling. On the first tries, it sure didn't feel good.

Thanks, P.

C-1 rolls

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:22 pm
by Mikey B
I had a similar feeling when I first converted my Delirious...and the thing that helped me most was just tucking forward for a second or two, and then swinging out and doing the roll. I think you'll find you don't have to be quite as worried about being 90 degrees either. For me, the easiest roll at first was just tucking forward while falling to my offside, and I'd instantly be over and coming out into the set-up position ready to swing out and roll up. Also, make your swinging out motion and then forehead on your shaft hand/hip snap as soon as you're out. The boat doesn't have quite the same feel of following you then. I know coming from a 12' boat, I also felt the little boat just following me around and got too preoccupied by that sensation at first...but once you get the feel for it, they are easy to roll.
Practice, practice. You'll have it soon!

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:46 pm
by Craig Smerda
For practice... slow down your setup and execution step by step. Try getting your torso away from the boat a bit until you get comfortable with your rotation spots in relation to the boat, paddle and torso. C-1's are by most accounts much easier to roll... I have noticed though that people tend to have the boat come up in an off axis postion until they figure the boat out. Sweeping the paddle strangley seems to be a contributiong factor. Hope this helps!

a bigger C-1

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:28 pm
by sbroam
One thing to try if you have one handy is to try rolling a bigger C-1 a couple of times. It won't "follow you around" as bad but still rolls "like a C-1". Get the feel of that then try your Score again.

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:24 pm
by Rumplestiltskin
C-boating ain't the same as paddling a canoe!

Rolling a C-1 is a finesse move. A lot of open boat paddlers rely more on a riskier (to their shoulders) "muscle-up" technique. Such a roll is easy to spot by the deep paddle dive and the face-out-of-the-water paddler position prior to recovery.

Work on perfecting an onside low brace combined with a hipsnap. Keep stretching and leaning out, perpendicular to the fore/aft centerline, on a low brace. Let your C-1 rotate along the long axis(a hip-spine-neck-head "C" move) until it is almost inverted. With practice, you will be able to right your boat in flatwater using your reliable low brace.

Then add a sweep and setup position to the low brace.

Piece of cake!

Doesn't Kent Ford cover this subject in his C-boat video?

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:31 pm
by jnorto01
I'm just starting to do the C-1 think coming from a Shaman and a Zoom. I don't have a problem rolling my C-1 slalom boat ( 13'2'') as long as I make sure not to bring my head up. The hip snap is a bit faster and more of an impulse. A shorter power curve so to speak. I have noticed the dog chasing its tail analogy when trying to roll a friends C-1 Y. I found it real easy to stall on the chines with this boat. Keeping the head down is a must. Jim

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:41 pm
by yarnellboat
Thanks for the comments.

Mike, it wasn't going under the boat from the off-side that was challenging me. Even going over onto my low brace and coming up on my on-side, as Rumple described, I was having trouble getting things started (and finished if the boat/deck got in my way - on those ones I was probably muscling it & head-up too early).

Craig, slowing things down is what felt wierd - trying to find my set-up. The body & boat just move differently, and I can't seem to float my paddle and shoulders straight out to the side in the same way.
If I had to guess, on the rolls I had success with it felt like I set up more out towards the back deck than at 90degrees, and actually rushed the hip snap more. Towards the back seemed like the only place I could get my paddle and shoulders near the surface.

Sometimes I came up with my a little too much weight on the bow, but nothing too serious.

Maybe that's just how the set-up felt. Next time I'll make sure I go with somebody who can see what I'm doing. Practicing on a bigger C-1 makes sense, but I hope I'll eventually "find my points" in the Score.


Rolling c-1

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:04 pm
by jscottl67
I'm pretty new here and very new to C-1. I've paddled flat water canoes for years and have run in class II & III in an open tandem, but got tired of feeling like I was padlling a truck through the rapids (and I've patched some serious dings in the f-glass a few too many times). I picked up a Cascade over the winter and figured with a little practice I would be good to go.

Well, trim is right (now), but my first WW c1 experience was on the Nantahala a few weeks back. The trim was screwed up at the time and the saddle was way too high and (insert any other valid excuse) and basically I got screwed on Patton's and had a nice long trip under the boat before giving up on my first three attempts at rolling. It took a moment or two after giving up on the rolls to remember to pop the skirt so I could get out, but I figured it out before I ran out of air.

So...rolling...what is the best technique for rolling something like a Cascade? Anywhere on the web that has a step by step or something? I'd sure love to get a roll down solid, cause being upside down in a rapid ain't a lot of fun, and I don't want to have to bail every time.


Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:20 pm
by jnorto01
Forgot to add this. I found that sweeping a bit forward with the paddle as I finish coming up on the C-1 roll is helpful. Otherwise my arms kind of get jammed up between me and the deck.

Maybe somebody can help with this situation. I'm still fairly new to paddling my Zoom and have had a couple of times when flipped where the boat settles in offside up and I just can't get under the boat to set up for the roll. Should I try a back deck roll when this happens? Anyone have some tricks up their sleeve. Thanks, Jim


Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:26 pm
by Mikey B
I was just suggesting that an offside roll might seem easier to do at first to stay away from that boat following feeling. I know when I first tried rolling my C-1, two things really felt different. The boat seemed to be so much more mobile ie. following me around as I tried to get into my familiar set up position and I felt like I didn't float up as high in the water when trying to get into my set up position like I do in my Shaman. I know my first attempts at rolling my C-1, I just would fall over to my onside and try and swing/float up like I did in my OC-1...and the sensation was that the boat just swung around as I tried to get out to 90 and I felt much deeper in the water. I struggled with it at first, but for me, doing an offside roll was so much easier, and after getting the feel of it, onside rolls were a snap (no pun intended :D ) then too. I just did everything quickly and smoothly, whereas in my OC-1, I sometimes have a pause when I'm out at 90 before doing my hip snap.
It just sounded like you were experiencing somewhat the same thing. It sounds like you're close to getting it anyway!

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:25 am
by yarnellboat
The (C-1) seemed to be so much more mobile ie. following me around as I tried to get into my familiar set up position and I felt like I didn't float up as high in the water when trying to get into my set up position
Yup, that's how I feel! Now I get your advice - I'll try finding my roll from the off-side instead of falling onto my brace. Thanks for the tip Mike.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who struggled a bit with the roll when going from an open boat to C-1.

Jeff, I'm at similar place, new to C-1, but paddled a ww solo canoe in between. Use the search function here for *lots* of variations on rolling advice. This is as good a place as any. And maybe pick up the Thrill of the Paddle book.

Searching, reading and asking here will help, but there's nothing better than getting somebody (who knows what they're doing) to go out with you and coach.

Jim, When your boat settles on its off-side, people normally tuck forward and do a high-brace motion over the front deck, sculling the boat over if necessary, then flip the blade and continue to your low-brace set-up.

If you flip facing upstream and/or your blade/body is at the stern, then you can do a similar high-brace/scull under the back deck. In both cases coming up on the same low-brace roll once you're set up.

There are definitely some other threads that discuss this too.


Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:29 am
by gerry

Try sticking your paddle out side ways 90 degrees to the boat with the non power face down on top of the water rather than sweeping back in a high brace like in an OC. This may help you from chasing your boat around. The roll should be quicker than an OC roll as you sweep forward keeping your nose on the paddle.


Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:21 pm
by yarnellboat
Thanks Gerry,

I am doing a low-brace roll, both OC and C-1 (I remain unconvinced about the advantages and shoulder safety of a high-brace roll, especially in a big OC).

As Mike described, the feeling of getting 90degress and floating your shoulders and paddle seems more elusive in the smaller boats. When I described that I felt I was leaning more towards the stern to get my shoulders near the surface, I'm still talking power-face-down and low-brace. I just don't seem to be able to twist as much and get squared up.

I think I'll worry more about a fast hip snap than exactly where my body & paddle are.


Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:44 am
by Tiggy
should be able to roll a c-1 without a paddle, aspire to that for a smooth roll, keep head wicked low :D

Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:00 pm
by ken hughes
The rolls are the same.

It's the same as changing OC1's. The Ocoee for instance rolls more slowly than the Zoom. The outrage is quicker than the aftershock.

My jackson superstar C1 is a slower roll than my Esquif Zoom.

Get your technique right and the debate is academic.