Ocoee or Outrage as first WW OC-1?

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

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Post by jscottl67 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:08 pm

Mike, I was chasing it the whole time, so don't be too impressed. I had been in the boat 5 minutes, and it was the first time I had been there. I was there with 3 friends who had been there before, and one was just sitting there in that huge eddy to the right (river left) of the hole doing nothing in a Genesis, and grinning like a cheshire cat.

I looked at Scott (one of his boats I was on), and asked quietly WTF is he grinning about...he's not doing anything. I looked at the hole for a minute, saw where I could get in and figured why not. I didn't ride for 2 hours for nothing. I told him to keep an eye on me, and I slid in the hole. At the water level at that point, there wasn't a lot of room in there and water would pour on top of the deck plate and squirt you back and kick you around pretty hard, then suck you back in... it was like riding a bull :) It was my best ride of the day, and I took several cracks at it. :) I guess I already mentioned, but it's a good thing I'm not bothered too much by a swim.


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Jeff...I remember you!

Post by philinasheville » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:05 pm

I paddled with you and your buddies on the Nanty. I remember yoru buddy swimming a bunch in his Detonator, and I remeber you paddling the Ovation and swimming once at surfers. Good luck with the Ocoee. If it doesn't work out for you, let me know. I'd be happy to trade you my Outrage for the Ocoee for a month or two if you want to try it out.

Take Care,

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Post by Mike W. » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:21 pm

The dumpster can be fun:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/wh20crazy ... pg&.src=ph
It can play hard too. I've seen Sweet, Greatful Heads & Rock Headz helmets broken in there as well as a bloody nose :-? . It can hold you longer than you'd like, but it usually will spit you out eventually. If it doesn't want to spit you out, just hold your paddle REAL tight & stick it deep. It may suck you out of the boat, but it gets you out of the hole :P


Please stay away

Post by Louie » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:52 pm

from both the Ovulation and Phomton couple of the worse open boats Dagger ever made. I built the mold table for the Ovulation when I was at Dagger. I have some in the warehouse and I can't give the things away.

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Post by jscottl67 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:22 pm

Thanks for the offer Phil. That was a fun trip, we went up about a month ago on the nanty and I got a nice view of the fish on Patton's. I was trying out that Cascade after putting in new outfitting that week...hadn't even put it in the water at that point. The saddle was way too high and the trim was way off...no fun at all. I deserved it...it was pretty stoopid.

Scott and i were discussing going up there, probably 1st weekend in May if it works out. If it pans out, we'll get in touch with you to see if you can fit it in.

Mike...cool pics. of the dumpster :) The time I went, it wasn't as gnarly as those pics. but it was wickedly fun. I think you might have paddled with some of the guys I paddle with. I think Scott may actually be up there this weekend, but my dad will be in town so probably not gonna be able to make the trip myself.

Louie, if you can send me some details on the boats in the warehouse, I might be able to help you out with giving a few away. We are constantly trying to convert butt boaters to OC down here, and I've got a friend in a Genesis. :(


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Post by Tiggy » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:14 pm

first off, don't lean out of the boat to get your paddle in the water. keep your head over your hips (relatively) like riding a bike. "roll" your hips to turn the boat.
let your boat cross eddylines b4 executing your "final" turn phase. at least get the bow in, lol

I've never paddled an outrage but it seems to have enough rocker to be alot of fun. After 10+ yrs paddling, I just got an Ocoee, combo of $ and to many boats as it is. I love it! Can't believe I waited this long lol.

I started in a Genesis then rival then atom then Mr. clean, glass boat, now Ocoee.
Its edgy but stable. flat bottom hull, hard chine, lots of rocker, good speed and hey...its pretty freakin dry too. Of course any open boat is dry with the right line imho.

Outrage will be good boat but depending how fast you learn this stuff you may outgrow it faster. After paddling a C-1 any open boat seems stable.
I'd get the outrage to learn in. Then when your good get a C-1. Use the outrage for Self support trips. After C-1 you can paddle any open boat well.
"Don't Panic"


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Post by jscottl67 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:58 pm

Thanks for the input Tiggy. I generally don't lean way out of the boat to catch water, but there have been times that I've ended up extended over the water a bit (on purpose) to make a move. It's mainly when I plant a duffolk for a fast turn out of current into a smaller eddy that I'll do that, or if I need to decelerate really fast to make a tight turn (duffolk/draw/stern sweep manuever).

I think the Outrage would be a lot more forgiving, but the Ocoee will force me to up my water reading skills. I'll have to pay more attention to what the water's doing if I've got an edge that can catch than if the hull would slide over it. It's something I'd need to do to advance any way, so why not get real good at it now. :)

I'm definitely going with the Ocoee, actually looking at two of them, both pinched 2", one of them cut about 4" at the bow and stern. I'm sure the cut boat will be a good bit wetter, but thinking with some blocking (and the fact that it is rigged for a 1250), it will be manageable and maybe a little easier to roll. Decisions, decisions :)

Again, thanks for the input. I'm sure I'll get to swim a few times, but we're already hitting on 90 degrees some days, so not necessarily a "bad" thing. :wink:


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Post by Larry Horne » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:05 pm

i don't know about those modifications.. i would bet the boat is better in it's original shape..do people think they are better boat designers than frankie? just my opinion

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Post by Steward » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:55 pm

Try both boat and see what you like, changng the shape does have benifits and drawbacks. By cutting down the ends the boat turtles better and rolls easier. With the ends cut down, when you pull in the boat, the chines get harder, and the hull faster. If you pull in the canoe with out cutting it down, then you'll find the hull rounds a bit. The cut down boat is wetter and less forgiving.

I've pulled my Ocoee in 3 inches up front. The result is a faster hull but has less primary stibility. Personally I like this shape better then the original, but I played with many thwart lengths to settle on this.

To start, I'd recommend you buy the stock hull and then make your own modifications as you get to know it.


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Post by ken hughes » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:45 pm

What is the problem? Buy the Ocoee and get some good coaching. Then spend a little more time getting your balance (just time after all!).

Do not buy an outage............it would be an outrage!

British rivers may be small, but they are perfectly formed!

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Outrage, all the way

Post by Jim Michaud » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:42 pm

I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would want to paddle a canoe that was difficult to paddle. :roll: Personally, I much prefer a canoe that allows me to survive the toughest rapids that I care to paddle. :D The last thing that I need when paddling hard rapids is a canoe that will flip me upside down the moment that I dip an edge. :( For this reason I'll take an Outrage any day over the Ocoee. The Outrage is very stable and very nimble, even on steep creeks. It also handles big powerful rapids very well. 8)


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Post by jscottl67 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:58 pm

I paddled both of the Ocoees and was surprised at the vast difference in the feel between the two. I paddled the pinched, but uncut boat first and it felt a little jittery but manageable after a few minutes. I was thinking...nope, bad idea. After about 5 or 10 minutes, I decided to try the other boat...pinched 2 inches and cut 4" at the ends....felt amazingly stable the second I hit the water in it.

It could be the outfitting differences, trim, something other than the fact that it was cut, but there was definitely a huge difference between the boats :) I decided after a few minutes to try the first boat again, just in case it was a matter of feeling uncomfortable to begin with, but growing more comfortable with the handling and that transferring to the other boat. Nope...second boat definitely a lot more stable.

So...happy new owner of and Ocoee...just need to add bags, bilge pump, and water :) I'm sure I'll take it for a swim when an edge catches me asleep at the wheel, but honestly this boat does not feel squirrely at all. Very fast, tracks well, turns well, and I feel right at home in it. Glad I went with this boat :)

BTW....thanks for all the input from everyone ;)

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Happy with Ocoee Decision

Post by jscottl67 » Mon May 08, 2006 5:59 pm

Happy to say that I am very pleased with the Ocoee purchase. Bags are in and I've been on the Haw and the Cape Fear so far. I'm not 100% dialed in on the boat yet, but getting very comfortable in it. I've played a little, enough to find those edges and get a feel for how they react, but not enough for those edges to have me viewing the fish yet. I did get to swim once when trying to block a big wave by quartering too far, but that wasn't the chines. ;)

A couple of things I've found so far on the boat (just in case a newer paddler is nervous about hard chines).

Initial stability isn't great, but it isn't that bad either. Feels a little loose to start with but slightly weight it to your onside and you are there.

Secondary stability it very solid. The transition from primary to secondary is not progressive..it's loose, then all of a sudden it's all there. A decent low brace is a good thing to know, just in case you aren't patient enough for it to kick in;).

The chines do catch when crossing an eddy line, especially if you do not lean the boat correctly. Scary the first few time, but also very fast and predictable. It's not something that happens once in a while, it catches the line every single time, no questions asked...get used to it and it's a blast :D

For an 11' boat, it surfs well. Use the chines and you can shoot back and forth almost at will.

You can actually paddle the thing in a straight line pretty easily if you watch your stroke mechanics. If you don't keep the paddle vertical, you'll wear yourself out with corrections...do it right and it tracks well.

The boat seems to like to go with the current...if you're on the tongue, it will stay there unless you move it...if the current goes around an object that has a pillow, it will follow around nicely...very nice :) It's kind of like bouncing off a seam when you have the wrong line crossing an eddy.

If you want to turn quickly, keep the boat flat and it will spin on a dime. drop the chine if you want to carve a turn, but if you just want to do a quick 180, keep it flat.

I guess, bottom line, the Ocoee is a very fun boat. It is not as progressive or forgiving as some boats but it is also very predictable. To me, predictable is better than forgiving in the long run. If a boat will let me get away with a mistake 4 out of 5 times, I'm betting the 1 time I don't get away with it will be the worst time. I'd rather it smack me 10 out of 10 when I make a mistake so that I know I'm doing it wrong and correct it before it becomes a habit. I don't think it is a boat that will mislead you on your abilities....it provides instant feedback on what is right and what is wrong...tough for a beginner maybe, but l think it will make you a better paddler in a quicker fashion than one that lets you get away with a lot.


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