C-Forum

Okay, any ideas on how to turn my OC roll into something useful? I'm 100% in flatwater, but am under 20% success for combat rolls. Some of it I'm sure is mental, since I've caught myself pushing down on the paddle more than once when the boat didn't come around quick enough for my tastes (doh). But even when I use perfect (for me) technique, the boat comes up much more slowly in current than when in the pool.

Are you counting to 5 seconds? When you flip, count to five. That will give you a chance to be going the same speed as the current. It also gives you a chance to collect your thoughts.

Personally, I think it's all a head game. When I flip in water I'm thinking that I havetorolluphavetorolluphavetorollup.... I think that's where I croak. When the wuss factor is high in me, then doesnt matter how rough and tumbly the current is. THat's when I DONT make the roll.

I want to find some rivers where I can intentionally bump my way down a rapid (nice and mild) so i can get over the fear of "ohno gonna hit a rock upsidedown-oh-no" That might help a bit hopefully.
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practice in gentle current you wouldn't normally flip in.

Definitely a head game. I'd be embarrassed to say how long I had a pool roll but no regular combat roll. As Martyn said, practice in gentle current. Peel out to your on side, flip to your on side. Peel out to your on side, flip to your off side. Reverse and repeat. Step up the current. Maybe as important, play hard in a spot with a clean runout - try 360s, enders, whatever, but push it - and roll. Roll a lot until it is automatic. Then next thing you know, you'll nail a combat rol land not notice it for a few minutes...

At least that is what worked for me!

playing is the best way to perfect your roll. period.
go find a nice little hole to play in, one that has a big pool below it, doesn't have a rock to hit your head on, and isn't too sticky or scary. if you're roll is 100% on flat water, you can make the combat rolls. you just need experience getting flipped when you least expect it.
now, i've never had any formal instruction. i'm pretty much a hack when it comes to the finer points of c-boating... but i've got respectfully dissagree with msims.waiting 5 seconds to roll? who teaches that, bob foote? while you're floating down the river upside down, counting to 5, i'll be upright and paddling for that eddie so i can jump in the hole again. or in the case of steep, hard runs, waiting 5 seconds to roll could cause some serious damage.

I agree with Martyn, Scott and Larry. Their approach to building confidence in your roll is a good one. Practice in a gentle current on flatwater to get the basic mechanics down. Remember to keep your head down until you're ready to bring your torso back over the boat. Once you are hitting rolls under these conditions move to a "friendly" play hole like the one Larry described.

I learned to roll by playing on the Ocoee in both Witches and Hollywood Hole. This is the best place to build your confidence. Jump in the hole and get on a low brace on your "on side". Get comfortable and prepare for the inevitable upstream flip as the boat fills and the current grabs the upstream edge. Don't panic. Set up quickly and roll that puppy. Do it again and again until you feel you'll roll back up no matter which position the boat is in when you flip. Do 360's until you flip. Do a pop-up. Once you are really comfy with the hole you'll be able to roll up in the hole! As the boat flips you can feel when the boat has rotated almost all the way around. Quickly get on a low brace and hip snap the hull back under you. You'll come up surfing (with a boat full of water) and may flip again or paddle out one end of the hole to the eddy.

Learning to roll up in a hole has practical uses in a combat situation. If you flip in a hole while running a rapid the reaction will be automatic. You'll do it without thinking about setting up or going on a head trip about bashing rocks. Once upright you can paddle out one end to a eddy (just as you practiced in the playhole). I have done this on creeks where there was no time to hang out upside down. Too many rocks and shallow stuff were downstream to wait before attempting a roll.

Playing, whether bow or side surfing, is the best way to sharpen your roll. I have never had a formal lesson and this method worked for me. Find a friendly hole and practice in it. Don't forget to keep your head down until your upper body is back over the gunnnel. Have fun

Michael

I agree with all the above sentiment about rolling and thinking. I have a very solid roll. Still, sometimes I swim. I only swim for 2 reasons; sometimes it happenes that I float up against something and just can't get the boat up. That is 5%. The other 95% is in my head; I bail before I roll. Given some of the scary places i have rolled, I know that I can roll almost anywhere. Sometimes I turn into an idiot.

Once you are technically able to roll and you practice enough it is all mental; at leat for me. Chris Kelly

As only Yogi could say it "90% of this game is half mental".

I agree about disagreeing on the waiting 5 seconds - I used to do that, something about "catching up to the speed of the current". I don't do that anymore. If you can hammer out a roll with proper technique - do it right away. It doesn't matter if you are on the upstream side, downstream side, on the eddy line, where ever. You can't do much about where you are going when you are upside down, besides, you might miss something.

[Yeah, like you are going to listen to me, the guy who blew his roll on an eddy line in front of a whole class of C-1ers on the Potomac I was tired, really, and I got a cramp, and my nose plugs came off and there was that fish biting me on the ear, and ...]

I'll just keep at it, then. My river practice so far has been pretty much a matter of jumping into/on a play feature with a safe runout, then trying to roll after I get flipped. So I'm getting lots of practice dealing with being flipped on my offside, upcurrent, etc. I just wish the practice didn't always end in a swim! So maybe I'll try flipping/rolling in gentler locations now, too - less chaos to deal with while I figure out what I'm doing wrong.

While I agree that waiting 5 seconds may not be necessary, there is some truth to the underlying idea that you've got to be patient.

A typical sympton of having "head issues" is to panic and rush your roll. If you're not simply bracing up on the same side that you flipped, then the boat may not be fully upside down and you'll have to roll it back up more than 180 degrees. In addition, a rushed roll resulting from panic often results in your head coming out of the water early and over top of an unstable boat, with predictable results.

Being patient and calm enough to avoid these problems will help you keep your head together and have a successful combat roll. If waiting 5 seconds helps gain that patience and calm, then wait. It can indeed be too long to wait in some circumstances and have all the bad consequences mentioned previously, but if you're trying this in a safe location with a nice pool below you shouldn't worry. Once you've combat rolled successfully in safe locations, then you'll probably find that you don't need to count to 5 anymore and can lose this crutch.

John

amen! ... all the other stuff above is good too.
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good point john.

Some of it I'm sure is mental, since I've caught myself pushing down on the paddle more than once when the boat didn't come around quick enough for my tastes (doh).

It looks like you have the same problem that I use to have (pushing down on the paddle). Pushing down on the paddle has the same effect as doing a pushup. It isn't going to work. What does work is to bring your knees up hard. Since the canoe is attached to your knees it will "roll" up.

Now, as I'm going over, I say one word: Knees. Once I'm upside down I swing out my paddle, flip it over, then bring my knees up hard. I no longer push down on my paddle. Every time that I've said the word "knees" as I went over I've never missed a roll. Another thing that helps a lot is having two bilge pumps in my canoe instead of just one.

Jim

If it's not working for you after a real flip right now, definitely graduate from the pool by practicing in easy spots on the river, even with a partner in an eddy. Compared to the pool, there's cold, there's noise, there's excitement, etc.

I'm not far ahead of you. You may still need to practice your technique (a lot) more. As a party trick, you're mentally prepared. On the river, your movements need to be automatic.

On my good side, I'm usually OK going over-and-back on my on-side. That's the easiest. But if I haven't rolled lately, I can still get lost sometimes going under the boat to get set up.

Are you bailing before you get under & set up? Or are you trying to finish the roll, but flopping back over (keep your head in the river)?

P.

I'm always trying at least a couple of attempts before bailing. Unless I know I'm in for a beating if I hang in. But that usually doesn't happen, because flips when I'm just running something are very rare. (Hope I'm not invoking the wrath of the paddlesnakes by saying that out loud!)

Have found it takes a lot of gymnastics/effort sometimes to even get set up when I flip on my offiside in pushy water.

I think I need to do something like Jim recommends - find a way to focus my attention on the knees and keeping that head glued to the paddle shaft. [/b]