Royalite adhesives?

[Heidi]

Project: Removing and reattaching vinyl thigh strap anchors and minicell knee pads on a Spark.

Looking for recommendations on adhesives to use for attaching vinyl and minicell and tips on removal of what is already there which was installed with waterproof Weldwood. I have used before and have on-hand a 3m 2 part epoxy or waterproof Weldwood for the minicell and vynabond for vinyl. Am planning on heating with a hairdryer to pry them off with gentle assist from a putty knife and then a little mineral spirits to remove residue, its this a plan? Thanks in advance for the advice and tips.

p.s. I have searched the archives but haven't found specifics about Royalite vs. Royalex repairs. Have heard that the ABS of Royalite is not covered with a vinyl. BTW I wrote Esquif yesterday but am wanting to start the project tonight so I'm just increasing my odds of having some info to work with, thanks.

[ChrisKelly]

regular Weldwood contact cement for the minicell. It worked fine.

My boat was factory outfitted and whatever Esquif used for the thigh strap anchors was not effective. (But Wayner used it for a season and maybe no boat can stand that kind of abuse.)

As the anchors began to pull loose I pulled them almost all the way off, sanded the area well, cleaned it with alcohol and used the 2 part epoxy. It is bomber. I just came back from a trip to Idaho where I paddled hard for 10 days and have not a hint of problem. I roll a lot and practice rolling a lot so have given them a very fair test. They are not coming up.

Now, to be fair to Vynabond, I installed two of those daisychain tie down thingeys and use then as bag attachment points (so they have considerable stress. I have had no problems with those either. But, for the thigh strap attachment points I am staying with the 2 part epoxy.

The two part epoxy is more expensive, but no much and is stiffer but the area that is stiffened is relatively small so I don't think that will be an issue.

Holler if I can help more. Chris Kelly

[Ed Eout]

In my experience the hair dryer will be fine for weldwood and minicell.
You may want a heat gun (cheap at home depot) -works better for vynabond. Mine has a low heat setting which is hotter than hair dryers. Be very careful about controlling the heat, you can easily melt or delaminate the vinyl (yup, did it my self). Also, the putty knife might not be necessary for the vinyl patches, and easily damages heat softened vinyl parts, just get a corner started and blow heat into the separating pieces. Wave the gun back a forth until the glue softens and give a gentle pull 'till you get to the cooler stiff glue and start again. It's kind of hot on your fingers but that may help to keep you from melting a hole in your boat. A long thin putty knife works wonders to separate minicell from a boat. Use same technique as above.
Hope this helps,
E

[montana c-1]

I have been using a 3m spray adhesive for foam ( 3m super 90) it works great at bonding foam to foam and foam to royalex. would certainly not use it for vynal to royalex.
anyway has worked great in the past , all the same rules apply as vynabond as far as application , but I think there are less volitile compounds to breakdown your boat. just a thought.

[ChrisKelly]

How did it turn out?

Question for everyone. How does thar spray glue work as compared to our old fav DAP Weldwood Contact Cement? For minicell I mean.

Chris Kelly

[sbroam]

I use the spray on adhesive to attach a pedestal in our OC-2 (the "kid" seat). That was "temporary" outfitting in the field - that is going on two years ago now... I still trust the Weldwood more.

[Dale]

Esquif recommends Stabond Adhesive which you can by through NRS for adhereing vinyl patches to the Spark which is r-84/royalite.

Bag cage vinly patches have come undone in the front on the chine.

Esquif recommends Stabond over Vynabond.

[Tiggy]

Stabond rocks! Use 2 coats, allow first to tack up, prep with mek (methyl ethyl ketone). the weldwood in the red can, has been great over the years, its just contact cement. I did get off on a tangent searching for "waterproof" contact cement, but none the less , have , come back to the trusty red can. Use two coats as well and be sure to really work it into the foam, it sucks it up fast.
As far as removal, its the labor of love, lol. I used some "adhesive" remover once, well the last open boat I outfitted, it worked well, picked it up at NAPA I believe. Need to be careful w/ organic solvents and plastic though so use conservatively, other than that, sandpaper and a razorblade.
Don't get high on the fumes!!!!

[Dale]

Hey Tiggy Thanks - good info. Can you get MeK in a hardware store or Home Depot?
Thanks Dale

[Heidi]

Thanks for the helpful info folks sorry not to reply sooner, haven’t made as much progress as I was hoping for. Appreciate the tip on Staybond, is Acetone not a suitable prep for Staybond? Have not heard from Esquif, perhaps they did not receive the request for info.

Have removed most everything but the saddle, which is a tad off center, will have to give it a closer look (measure), not sure as to how much difference an inch or two might make and whether or not to remove it. A few more questions came up that would be good to hear others thoughts on. As I will be playing with this boat as a rec racer, keeping the weight down is a consideration, but also plan on using it as a river runner under class 4 water.

What do you think about the Spark’s flex in the hull? i.e. while on land, placing my knee on the saddle and rotating by the gunwales it has a lot of flex. Thinking a couple thin cross strips in the bow should firm it up. Wondering why Esquif didn’t do this….added weight perhaps?

I’m also concerned about the saddle as a point of friction and stress. My two-year old Outrage first started developing stress cracks and popped a bag anchor this past January when air temps were in the teens. The spider cracks continue to appear; Jim M. recommended a layer of vinyl in front of the saddle to seal the cracks from letting moisture in, he likes to add this layer of vinyl before setting the saddle if possible.

1 So I’m stalled on whether to remove the saddle completely and add a layer of vinyl or just lay down a layer of vinyl over the stress area around the front edge and forward of the saddle or forget about the layer of vinyl

2 Or, replace the saddle with a hanging thwart and do some modified knee pads maybe using a flexible vinyl that cups the knees to about 6” up the thighs and do away with the straps

Thanks, Heidi

[ChrisKelly]

" is Acetone not a suitable prep for Staybond?"

I can't think why not. but I usually just clean well, sand and use alcohol. I would not use Acetone unless the cleanup of the olf glue or minicell required it. But that is just me. I use Acetone but try not to unless needed.

" Have removed most everything but the saddle, which is a tad off center, will have to give it a closer look (measure), not sure as to how much difference an inch or two might make and whether or not to remove it."

If the saddle is off center and you are doing all this work, then it is prolly woth the effort to fix it. An inch or so make s a big difference.

"What do you think about the Spark’s flex in the hull? i.e. while on land, placing my knee on the saddle and rotating by the gunwales it has a lot of flex. Thinking a couple thin cross strips in the bow should firm it up. Wondering why Esquif didn’t do this….added weight perhaps?"

I think you are ezactly right. Esquif used teeny and few thwarts in this boat. That is all fine for running race courses but for class iV paddling I want a bit more stiffness and strength. I added one across the top of my saddle.

I don't know nothing 'bout no vynal over cracks. I had cracks in my old Rival. So I pulled the saddle, took out all the cracked or nasty royalex and filled it with kevalr and epoxy. It worked pretty well but the floor is always gonna flex and pretty soon it cracked more. I think that stuff like this is just the natural consequence of boating.

The two part epoxy has worked very well on my Spark thigh strap attachment points, which were Esquif factory installed and did not stay down well. Chris Kelly

[yarnellboat]

For the spiders cracks on the inside of a boat -

I'm happy with my repair using 3M adhesive to put down a large patch of thin ABS plastic. (There's another thread about these cracks & repairs somewhere.)

I found the epoxies/glass were too brittle/stiff and eventually re-cracked. I didn't have much faith in a vinyl patch offering much support. So, I put down a piece of ABS plastic in my cockpit, and a second, smaller patch on top of that, right in front of my saddle where most of the cracking was.

P.

[ChrisKelly]

I replaced a vinyl thigh strap attachment point in my Spark yesterday. It was factory installed by Esquif. I had already replaced the others. It was coming loose and I was able to easily pull it off using the hair dryer and my fingers.

I used DEVCON high strength Plastic Welder and am convinced that it is the way to go for high tension tie down points in Royalite. I have used it before in the Spark and earlier in royalite Rivals. It is a two part epoxy available at Walmart. The package has the numbers "S-220" and "22045" and lists the following materials: "Hard Plastics, Metals, Concrete, Vinyl, PCV Piping, "Fiberglass". I bought three packages for about $7.25.

It is pretty easy to use. You don't have to let it all dry right etc. I sanded both the boat and the patch, and cleaned them both with a quick rub of Acetone and again with alcohol. (prolly overkill)
You then mix the epoxy. I spread a thin coat on the boat and rolled the vinyl patch on and pressed it down, rolled etc for about 2 minutes. There a 4 minute working time so if you use it do each patch seperately. I mixed a full tube for the patch which was more then needed but never have had good luck saving half packages of these tubes.

I roll the boat multiple times a week, put lots of pressure on the thigh straps and have never had it fail.

I am not dissing Stabond here; just reporting what works.
It also works well on Royalex but so do other things.

Chris Kelly

[yarnellboat]

Thanks Chris,

Always interested in hearing about a new product. Especially one that's cheap, easy to use, and works!!!

Sounds too good to be true, and makes me wonder why everybody doesn't know about it and use it, but I'm certainly willing to give it a try!

Have you tried it vinyl-to-vinyl (vinyl d-ring bases to a Royalex boat)?

Have you tried it with anything on "kayak plastic" in a C-1?

PY.

[ChrisKelly]

We have been using it for at least 4 years. I think it will not work with Twintex. It says right on the package "will not bond to polyethlene or polypropylene plastics."

I have used it on Royalex and it works fine but so does Vynabond.

Let me say this. It gets hard when it sets up so replacement will require serious sanding. I have torn through the little gray plastic plates twice, once with a steel D-ring and once with rope loop, actually wearing through that U shaped channel in the plate but I have never had the glue fail. Chris K

As to why we don't use it.....I guess because they don't sell it at NOC or the other boating places we all frequent so we are not tuned in to it. Also, my use may be a bit novel. Many people have used it for the plastic plates but I don't know anybody but me who has done so with regular vynil patches.