C-Forum

When to abandon your upstream hold (if you have one) on OC during a swim?

OK, so the obvious is to let it go before a waterfall or strainer etc. Or to go for that eddy if a long gnarly section is coming up. But what about that swim in the middle of a III- rapid when a rather turbulent drop is coming up? I have liked hanging on to the end of canoe for extra buoyancy and waiting for the chance of getting the boat into the next eddy.

Recently, I had a conversation with a friend about the above in thinking about some medium water drops in Golden whitewater park in Colorado. Certainly not big drops at that water level, but drops nonetheless. Big eddies before these drops would seeem to allow a swimmer to get to eddy before the drop; probably too fast in places to drag canoe in before the drop.

There is a great pic on p.60 of River Rescue of a guy in the "exlemplary" positon--about 10 yards upstream of his canoe with feet up etc. Well, his canoe had other plans and decided to slow down in the foamy part of the drop and go sideways--apparently stalled for the moment.

So do you hold on or let go? Maybe that guy in photo would have done ok holding on in back--or not. And maybe he would float right into the stalled canoe. Dumping before a medium and rather narrow drop sometimes doesn't allow for a swimmer that has let go of a canoe enough room to get lateral and behind of canoe.

I know that canoes--as shown in the picture described above--can get quite confused in these short foamy drops. Then again, bouyancy still could be good and holding on perhaps would eliminate the sideways canoe waiting for the upstream swimmer.

Sorry for the length of this...enlightened experiential feedback would be most appreciated. Lost a friend and coworker this summer in a boating accident. All this stuff has been "swimming" in my head..

d

I could teach you an ascending brace or a low brace or even a roll. Open boats are extremely stable. How are you winding up in the H20?

open canoes usually run rapids better when they're empty and upside down, so when you fall out of it, hang on to learn the good line through the drop
really though, they do float a lot better than flooded decked boats, and it's always cool to NOT have your buddies chasing your sht down the river... so hanging on, and rescuing yourself, is a good thing.. usually..
of course there are many variables involved. you have to weigh how much grief you'll get from your buddies if you let it go... will they make you drink a booty beer? will they just stop paddling with you? will you have to walk through miles of poison oak/ivy? do you hate that boat anyways? lots to consider.
for me, (generally speaking) i would for sure hold on for a class three drop, maybe hold on for a class four, and not even think about it above a class five.

Tiggy,

We have also discussed what to do in our house if it is on fire. Although most house don't catch fire, it's not a bad thing to consider.

d

I would rather have a somewhat safe swim and kick the boat off,, it's piece of plastic or glass that can be replaced.
Not so with your life.
It does hinge on alot of variables, but knowing what you are getting into,hazards etc..allows you a game plan.
I personally hate people that freak out on you when you try to help them.
The folks that I paddle with regularly don't have a problem helping me and Nor I them (even though I'm they are yakkers)
I'd much rather look like a fool with 4 yakkers helping me to gather my stuff.As opposed to losing my stuff,wrapping myboat ,and or getting pinned.
I pride myself on my self rescues,yet, if some one is close by and offers help,I'll take it with a smile
Shawn

cAN'T HELP BUT BE A SMART butt, DOH!


Fire Deaths and Injuries: Fact Sheet



Occurrence and Consequences

· On average in the United States in 2003, someone died in a fire about every 2 hours (134 minutes), and someone was injured every 29 minutes (Karter 2004).

· Four out of five U.S. fire deaths in 2003 occurred in homes (Karter 2004).

· In 2003, fire departments responded to 402,000 home fires in the United States, which claimed the lives of 3,145 people (not including firefighters) and injured another 14,075 (Karter 2004).

· Most victims of fires die from smoke or toxic gases and not from burns (Hall 2001).

· Smoking is the leading cause of fire-related deaths (Ahrens 2001).

· Cooking is the primary cause of residential fires (Ahrens 2001).



Costs

In 2003, residential fires caused more than $6 billion in property damage (Karter 2004).


Groups at Risk

Groups at increased risk of fire-related injuries and deaths include:

Children 4 and under (CDC 1998);

Older Adults ages 65 and older (CDC 1998);

African Americans and Native Americans (CDC 1998);

The poorest Americans (Istre 2001);

Persons living in rural areas (Ahrens 2001a);

Persons living in manufactured homes or substandard housing (Runyan 1992; Parker 1993).
Back to Top

Risk Factors

Approximately half of home fire deaths occur in homes without smoke alarms (Ahrens 2001b).

Most residential fires occur during the winter months (CDC 1998).

Alcohol use contributes to an estimated 40% of residential fire deaths (Smith 1999).
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References

Ahrens M. The U.S. fire problem overview report: leading causes and other patterns and trends. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association; 2001.



Ahrens M. U.S. experience with smoke alarms and other fire alarms. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association; 2001b.



CDC. Deaths resulting from residential fires and the prevalence of smoke alarms - United States 1991–1995. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 1998; 47(38): 803–6.



CDC, National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). National vital statistics system. Hyattsville (MD): U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, CDC, National Center for Health Statistics; 1998.



Hall JR. Burns, toxic gases, and other hazards associated with fires: Deaths and injuries in fire and non-fire situations. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association, Fire Analysis and Research Division; 2001.



Istre GR, McCoy MA, Osborn L, Barnard JJ, Bolton A. Deaths and injuries from house fires. New England Journal of Medicine 2001;344:1911–16.



Karter MJ. Fire loss in the United States during 2003. Quincy (MA): National Fire Protection Association, Fire Analysis and Research Division; 2004.



Parker DJ, Sklar DP, Tandberg D, Hauswald M, Zumwalt RE. Fire fatalities among New Mexico children. Annals of Emergency Medicine 1993;22(3):517–22.



Runyan CW, Bangdiwala SI, Linzer MA, Sacks JJ, Butts J. Risk factors for fatal residential fires. New England Journal of Medicine 1992;327(12):859–63.



Smith GS, Branas C, Miller TR. Fatal nontraffic injuries involving alcohol: a meta-analysis. Annals of Emergency Medicine 1999;33(6):659–68.

hey tiggy,
wtf is an ascending brace?

I tend to agree with Squeakyknee and Larry.

For me it's all about the consequences and how beat up you might get. I'm typically paddling alpine creeks, so things are kinda continuous and boney and not really a good place to let go of gear (not really good for swimming either come to that). In the 2 times I've run one creek in OC1 (the Engstligen - kinda my test piece), I've swum three times - twice I did full self rescues - the other time the river was cranking and I ditched the boat and swam for it. Kept the paddle though - they're harder to find. Normally I do self rescues and it's a really important skill, but when the water is harder I'm not scared to drop and go.

Just my thoughts

Matt

I may be off on terminology, but when flipping to your offside, you can go from a stern pry and sort of jam the shaft against the hull and pry your boat upright before you flip. In an open boat you can jam the blade deep and really pry against it. In a C-boat, you need to just hang on to the H20.
I have recovered from near offside flips in open boats and c boats this way, its cool. Got another name for it?

nah, i don't know what it's called. didn't bob foote come up with that one?
i always thought that was just a goofy party trick, never seen anybody do it in a real live situation which ain't sayin much cuz there's only one or two open boaters in CA...sounds like it works though....

I believe it is more commonly called a "righting pry".

I learned it from a Canadian, lol

When running tough rapids I typically have a game plan if I happen to swim. Knowing where you don't want to be is the most important, then come ditching boat and paddle. Number one rule in self rescue is to save your own butt.

Adam

Nessmuk wrote:I believe it is more commonly called a "righting pry".

Looks like a total hero move if you can jam one in before going over.
Anything to keep the open side up.
As for letting the boat go... only if I know I'm going to get pinned, otherwise she usually picks better lines than I do.

Geoff

Nice thing is you can do it from a "rudder" position, it translates well from a stern pry, not a party trick, it works.