C-Forum

How exciting…. First time I’ve ever posted on a forum. Hope I don’t have spinach in my teeth…

I have been reunited with my love of WW canoeing…ahhhhh! Wonderful. Learned as a child at summer camp in western NC. We were running the Nantahala in 14’ Grummans when I was 14 – Chattooga, Oconaluftee, Tuckaseegee, Little Tennessee…. the great days of youth. Now at the ripe age of 44 and living in NM, I am ready to re-join the ranks. But I find canoe research extremely difficult – there are so few manufacturers now and fewer places to find reviews and specs of these no-longer-manufactured boats. I am getting frustrated!

Here are my uses: I will be mostly be on multi-day river trips packing gear in class II-III. I would like to become comfortable in the occasional class IV. I would like to learn to roll. I am 5’-10” and about 160lb. I am in average shape. I don’t see myself doing a ton of play boating or creek running. I took a Dagger Rival down the Chama River last month and enjoyed it tremendously. Very responsive, strangely light, weirdly flexible, and an absolute stubborn bear in the flat sections (I realize I can’t have everything!). I shipped a bit of water in the III’s but it was still fairly dry and pretty stable when wet. I was carrying about 40lbs of gear. In future situations w/o raft support, it would be closer to 65lbs +. My husband and I also paddled a Dagger Dimension last fall down the San Juan, moderately loaded. It was great fun but not particularly dry! We bailed a lot and swamped once. The freeboard was pretty low at ‘midships. I know that I want a dryer OC-1 than that! But it’s a jungle out there and there are no stores in the larger vicinity to assist me. I have gotten some great info browsing this forum, but sometimes it leaves me more lost than before.

With this information, what OC-1 would you recomend? This is your chance for solicited advice giving! Flood me with opinions please…

And any links to clubs, group, schools, big stores, whitewater classified etc in the Rocky Mtn area would also be appreciated!

Slante!
weeMac

PS: This website is awesome!

I live in Steamboat Springs. You will have a hard time finding a good paddling school. I instructed for ten years. Canoe school is no more. Check out mountainbuzz.com . Used boats etc..
As far as dry boats go, it depends on your line. Also, sometimes a swamp is inevitable. Rival is a good boat, shouldnt be bad on flatwater, but hey I been paddling a Mr.Clean converted to C-1, lol. It is (the rival) one of the faster hulls out there, which comes down to waterline and rocker.
There is always the Rocky Mountain Canoe club. Good club I guess, but they are not producing high caliber boaters, (from what Iv'e seen). I have thought about joining, but they also don't list to many trips that appeal to me. They mainly do Class2-3, and browns canyon. Beyond thier trip list I don't know much of what else they do.
If you want instruction maybe we could work something out this spring. Lord knows I need a little extra cash. I used to be ACA certified for whitewater instruction, but not anymore because it costs too much to keep up to date, also I didn't get much out of the courses, I didn't just say that, lol. None the less, I can still teach very well.
Good luck and This site does kick butt!

Thanks Tiggy! I responded to your instruction offer off-site.

So you feel the Rival would be good as a multi-day, class II-IV, loaded boat. I was pretty surprised at how quick it was, although I hardly have the experience to judge. Unfortunately it was borrowed and not mine...

I've been creating a Dagger spreadsheet with all the comments I can find on each one. There are many blank spaces. What are paddlers general thoughts on Mad River, Esquif and Bell? I read about alot of royalex issues from these newer manufacturers.

Thanks for your patience with these entry level questions!

weeMac

np mac. I have never paddled an Esquiff, but thier hulls look great. I know of a dealer in Fort Collins who will demo them. Go with what feels good, as far as modern hulls go, the rival is "big" I own one and will never sell it. It is just a great all around boat. Id love to jump into an esquiff, just vey curious.

Tiggy,

Could you tell me the name of that dealer? Perhaps we could bop over there on our way to Estes in a few weeks. Any other dealers you know in CO demo'ing canoes?

weeMac

There might be some inconsistency in your goals. If you are doing multi-day on class 2-3, you are going to have a bunch of gear in the boat, and rolling will be irrelevant. Rolling is for when you are day-tripping and playing. On multi-day trips, I recommend that you not get yourself strapped in real tight. Stay loose and comfortable.

By any chance, did you run the San Juan with Sunrise Expeditions? They always have one Dimension on the boat trailer. I ran with them in '99, using my MR Synergy.

Another by-any-chance...... when paddling with west NC camp, did you compete in the Southeasterns at the Nantahala? If so, I was the tall person who slapped the inspection sticker on your boat.

I ran the Chama in a kayak, but most of my CO runs, including my '05 solo run of Slickrock Canyon, have been in my MR Synergy, or previously in my Phoenix C-1.

Yeh, I thought about that. But I think that once I become completely obsessed, which I see as inevitable, I'll be doing day runs at home on the Rio Grande in my back yard. And if I am fortunate enough to be on a trip with many rafts, I may be gearless. In those cases, it would be nice to astound everyone (mostly myself) with a snappy roll. But my first love is of a nice long self sufficient multi-day... So I take it no one tries to roll with gear?

We never competed while at camp, though we ran the Nanty often. But my brother competes all over everywhere so I'm sure you've slapped his C-1 many times there. His name is Norwood Scott, in case that rings a bell. He's been on the US C-1 Wildwater team for 3 world championships. I love to be able to toss his name about - makes be feel like someone other than a nerdly big sister.

I ran the San Juan with a group of friends from Durango and Moab. It was over Halloween weekend. Perhaps you saw our carved pumpkins we left on the ledges....

weeMac

The Mad River Outrage is similar to the Rival. And, unlike the Rival, you can still buy one new (though i think Millbrook may still be making a composite version of the Rival).

If you're mostly planning on paddling loaded with gear, then the Outrage X (13 ft) might be a better choice than the standard (12 ft) Outrage.

The Dagger Genesis is another good WW tripper (but, like all Dagger's canoes, it's no longer in production).

Some of the bigger Esquif solos would probably fit the bill, too.

But either way, at your weight (160 lbs), and with 65 lbs of gear for multiday trips, you'd probably do best with a 13 ft boat.

WRT rolling, both the Outrage and Rival are both pretty easy to roll... without a multiday load.

As to rolling loaded... I guess that would depend on how low in the boat you kept all your gear. If you kept the center of gravity really low, I think the extra weight might even make the boat easier to roll. But all that extra weight, if kept low in the boat, will also make the boat much more stable, so you're less likely to need to roll.

there's no reason you shouldn't be able to roll a boat with gear for 3-4-5 days in it.

For running with 65 lbs or so of gear, you might want to consider a solo outfitted tandem playboat. I've soloed a Caption, and it was super responsive with just me in the boat. Watch any of the Paddlesnake videos to see what a good boater can do with a solo Caption . 65lbs of gear probably wouldn't change the handling much. Test paddled a Nexus with my daughter as 'ballast' in flat water, and I would think it'd work well as a loaded solo, too.

Boats in this class that are still made:

Esquif Vertige X
Bell Nexus

Boats that are probably available used:

Mohawk Probe 14
Mad River ME
Dagger Caper T (or a solo caper - same boat, just different outfitting)

Boats that you probably won't find used:

Dagger Caption

Hey WeeMac,

Have you taken a look at the Bell Prodigy and Prodigy X ? The Prodigy is kind of like a smaller person's version of the Rival. I paddled one last weekend. I was probably a bit too big for it, and would have been better in the Prodigy X. I was really impressed by how fast the boat was, how well it tracked, surfed, and just behaved. My friend who owns the boat really likes it. She is quite light and found her old Phantom hard to control. The Prodigy is definitely an improvement for her.

You guys (gals?) have been very helpful. I have seen several of the boats mentioned for sale in neighboring states. I just might get outfited yet! I take it the longer the boat, the more stable...

It seems like if I learned to roll empty, and mounted extra D-rings on the hull low on the sides, I could strap gear down tight and low and inflate the bags over the top. It should act like a ballast keel of sorts and leave the boat WANTING to be upright.

Has anyone tried that?

weeMac

Rolling the Rival with 3-4 days gear in it ought not be a problem. Well, in theory that is correct.....but......

I love the Rival and have had 4 of them and have a strong roll. I also love to canoe trip. IF I chose my stuff well, IF I secured it all correctly each time and IF I was not in shallow water I might roll the boat. However, I cannot remember a trip where I put all my stuff in right. I always have something tied loosely (or not at all). To be upside down in a class IV rapid with camping large steaming pile of dog doo, dry bags etc flopping all about ain't my idea of fun.

I think it is, from a practical point of view, for a person who does not have an absolute bomber roll and who has practiced rolling in just these conditions, a recipe for disaster.

If I am toting much stuff in the canoe I am pretty much planning to not roll. I admire anybody who can pull it off with a high enough frequency to make it a good bet but that ain't me.

As to boats, I think that for fun paddling both the Prodigy and the Rival are very fine for this poster's purpose. Both are quick and roll easily.

For WW canoe tripping I think I'd go more toward the Caption type boat. I just got off a six day Selway trip paddling my Esquif Spark but all the junk was in the rafts. Chris Kelly

what i should have said in my previous post is... if you've got a good roll and you pack your gear properly (chriskelly ) there's no reason you shouldn't be able to roll a canoe with a few day's gear in it.

Think about a roll like you are spinning a log without branches, in the water.