C-Forum

I have never paddled a glass race boat but I enjoyed watching some of the Canadian national ww team train= in them Monday at the U.S. National Whitewater Center in Charlotte. I know there are slalom racers on this board and would like to know some things about these boats:

How long are glass slalom race boats?

Are they very tippy or stable?

Are they easy or difficult to roll?

Are they extremely fragile? Why the super thin ends?

What is the reason for the thin profile and sharp edges where the top meets the bottom? I saw boaters using these edges to do ferries so I guess it adds control? Or is it so you can sink the stern to clear a gate or pivot turn? They appear to be not much bigger volume than squirt boats.

Are these boats typically soft-chined?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions. Those boats sure look fast and the C boaters were a lot more impressive to me than the double-bladers.

The new ICF rules are 3.5m in length and .65m in width as a minimum. The design of the boat is quite tippy. Technique is key to keeping one under control and up right. As for the roll. It is a very easy move. The manufacturers have several layups. They can be extremely thin and brittle ( Olympic caliber) or quite stout. I boat with people that take them down just about anything other than steep creeks.

Check out these boat links
http://www.galasport.com/catalogue/inde ... egory_id=6

http://www.vajdamr.sk/

How long are glass slalom race boats?

The new rules have a 3.5m minimum. The older boats are 4m long.

Are they very tippy or stable?

Most have fairly flat hulls and are pretty stable (in flat water)

Are they easy or difficult to roll?

A little harder than a converted kayak. Easier than an open boat.

Are they extremely fragile? Why the super thin ends?

Because of the minimum weight (is it 9kg now?), they hold up to quite a bit of abuse. The most frequent "injury" is breaking the stern.

What is the reason for the thin profile and sharp edges where the top meets the bottom? I saw boaters using these edges to do ferries so I guess it adds control? Or is it so you can sink the stern to clear a gate or pivot turn? They appear to be not much bigger volume than squirt boats.

Because of the length (to make the boat fast in a straight line), you must stern-pivot when turning much of the time. That's why they are flat and thin in the stern. The chines are hard in order to make control crisper.

Are these boats typically soft-chined?

No. See above.

Thanks in advance for answering my questions. Those boats sure look fast and the C boaters were a lot more impressive to me than the double-bladers.

I love to paddle my race boat all the time. But a race boat, because it's got a lot of exposed edge, requires constant effort to avoid having the edges bite you. In whitewater, you must keep the boat moving to have the most fun.

And it sure is. Once you've felt the speed, it's hard to go back to a low-performance boat.

I have not paddled the newest designs to the updated ICF specs yet, but older boats are a lot of fun. I actually find slalom boats a lot EASIER to roll than converted kayaks (though it does depend on the boat converted), but that's also my style of roll. Other than that I agree with Bob 100%.

Boating a "long boat" is definitely a different sort of boating, and a lot of fun IMhO...I prefer it to playing in holes and such, but that may be due to the type of water I paddle usually (Hudson and Hudson gorge).

If you want to try a tippy boat hop in a WildWater C1 . even the "stable" ones are quite an experience.

Then there's the whole squirt C1 scene...I'll leave it up to others to debate which is the least stable...a WW C1, the Oxygen, or the Maven

When asking about the chine, I was actually referring to the edge on the bottom of the boat and wondering how soft or hard that is. The knife-edge all around the boat is obviously very sharp. I would like to try one sometime — on something deep and easy!

"When asking about the chine, I was actually referring to the edge on the bottom of the boat "

You may have been looking at an older boat that has the chines or rails running along the hull. The newer boats do not have them. With the move to exclusively bow foward paddling styles, NO stern rudder please!, I imagine the need for them went away. I am just speculating.

The Galasport Loco is probably the most stable of the current short C1s. Followed by the Gala Makao and Vajda Lizard. Add Novak in there as that is very similar to the Makao. Caiman and Double Dutch have some interresting designs as well. The new Vajda Martikan looks really radical and probably requires an awful lot of boat control and practice to paddle it with in its performance envelope. However, on a short tight course, with the right paddler, M. Martikan to be exact, I bet it will be smoking fast! Look at the Orca that James Cartwright designed and is now building. It looks very promising and probably right in the mix with the Gala and Vajda products other than the Martikan. N.American boat builders and designers need our support.

Durability will not be on par with your plastic converted K1s however, they are much easier to fix when they do break. Like Bob P. said most time it is the stern that takes the abuse. The repair is much more durable in the long run as well compared to plastic.

As to rolling, depends on your style and where you started. I kind of think rolling an open boat is easier than Slalom C1 and then playboat C1. Just me....

All (well most) of your c-1 slalom desires photographed in a single link. http://www.eauxvives.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14789
One thing that's pretty cool is that the Euros seem as excited about slalom (and even wildwater) development as the freestylers/creekers are here. It seems every Euro is happily designing a new boat, working with a manufacturer to build it, and inviting everyone to come out and test the prototype. I'm still running a 96 era Estanguet Groiun, and the only new design I've tried is the Novak, for about 2 eddy turns, so I can't really comment on specifics, but they are all pretty certain to be fun. Enjoy...edg

Previous posts have answered most, if not all of your questions. I would just add that, if you're used to the weight of a plastic boat, you'll find a composite slalom boat to be a welcome relief the first time you lift it. This also translates into quicker acceleration and responsiveness as less inertia accompanies the lesser mass.

You'll find the difference in hull speed to be evident immediately. Ferries are a piece of cake and you can quickly sprint ahead of paddlers in short boats with just a few strokes. By using your edges to carve turns or to pivot, you'll also find that a slalom boat is very manuverable. However, as Bob notes, a slalom boat wants to move (i.e. if you don't maintain momemtum in turbulent water, then current will grab that sharp edge and have its way with you). Slalom boats must be paddled aggressively. It's in this respect that slalom boats and squirt boats are similar. Squirt boats developed out of slalom designs in the early 80s, but typically are even lower in volume and even edgier than true slalom boats.

You can still surf in slalom boats, but it is there that you must accept some compromises. You need to choose waves with longer wavelengths to avoid pearling, and preferably ones in deeper water to avoid crunching that long composite bow if you do ender out. You can sideways surf in holes and even do some slow horizontal spins, but a slalom boat is too long to play like today's playboats and not as forgiving about contacts with rocks if your play doesn't go as planned.

Despite these compromises, slalom boats are a blast! Other than occasional open canoe with the family, I don't paddle anything else.

John

plus nothing beats paddling gates. well, okay, there are a few things, but I am paddling gates in Denver right now, and nothing beats that because all of our rivers are frozen over.

Tom- with your Loco, I just found out that if you move the saddle way forward, like 3-4 inches from the rear of the cockpit rim, the glide is way better, and it's way easier to carve with. maybe you didn't/don't have that problem, but I definetely found it to be a helpful thing. Also, that new Maryland Course when will it open to the Public?
Prost
-Isaac

The Grand Opening of the new course in Maryland is scheduled for April 1, 2007.

Natalie

Hi Isaac!

I went and measured my pedestal and it is about 3.75" off the rear of the cockpit at the the deepest point. I am thinking another 1/2" may be in order; however, until I get my posture correct for the duration of a workout I am going to leave it alone. I get tired fast and start to sink back in my seat and lean back. Then the boating falls apart so at that point I had better just leave. Happened yesterday after about and hour and a half of paddling at the Feeder Canal. Some other C-Boaters showed up and I would loved to have stuck around I just was to tired.

The ASCI complex looks really nice. The finishing touchs like landscaping, paved trails, viewing platforms and such are going in. I have not heard anything on whether the wave shapers where fixed. The holes looked pretty bad at the bottom of them. The designer assures that there is nothing to trap you on them. After walking the course I would say he is right, they still look pretty nasty though. I have not seen any waves on them either. I am sure it will be worked out over the winter and early spring. I have a nice farm sitting about twenty minutes from there so I plan on being out there pretty regularly come Spring. They are calling it the "Augusta of Whitewater" courses. It is beautiful!

Merry Christmas!

Tom

yeah, it definetely needs to be paddled heavily forward. my body is almost always canted so that my head is farther forward than the front rim of the cockpit. and it still pivots with out leaning back.

I just talked to someone who knows alot more than I so about courses, and he was telling me that when they let the C-boater go down, and try out the course, it wasn't at 100% flow. so that when there is correct flow the whole concrete shapers will be covered up. was there a different problem? or was it something else, some of them did look like death.
Prost
-Isaac