C-Forum

looking at Esquif Paradigm or Esquif Nitro. or changing my eskimo diablo or savage gravity for first single blade boat.
thanks
dan

I'll leave discussion of the best OC-1 to the open boaters, but as to whether to paddle OC-1 vs. C-1, it's really up to your paddling style and interests - along with a good dose of personal physiology.

I'm sure that two dozen people will soon post to disagree with me, but open boats are generally more stable (although some of the more radical designs are extreme enough to essentially be decked boats without a spray skirt), able to carry gear more readily, easier to get in and out of, and definitely easier on the knees. However, they also tend be somewhat heavier, fill with water much more readily, and, as a whole, typically aren't quite as agile (although, again, there are some pretty radical open boats that come pretty close). If you love doing loops and cartwheels, I personally would suggest thinking about a C-1 (although open boaters do rodeo as well). If kneeling on a 6-7 inch seat or stuffing your size 13 gunboats under the deck behind you is something that you find a real chore, then perhaps open boats are more your cup of tea. (NOTE: Kneeling for any length of time is going to be an adjustment at first. It's made easier by a higher seat, which also makes the boat less stable, and by repeated practice [mainly because your legs become numb once you've cut off the circulation to them on a regular basis].)

I hope that this is of some help. If so, don't worry...the following two dozen posts will all disagree with what I have said, as well as with each other, in order to leave you totally confused.

John

I completely disagree with John.

Or maybe not...

If you want to learn how to paddle "properly", get a C1. It will allow you to learn offside strokes and braces quicker because the boat is a bit narrower and lower. Once you are proficient, you can easily switch to an open boat when the occasion permits.

My only thought is that the selection of "real" c-1s is very limited, and finding a good converted kayak is difficult. I would recommend a Class V glass Atom as a nice firm (stable) and capable river runner. I have not paddled a Finkenmeister, but it would be worth considering also.

Hi Dan,

Hope you enjoy the change of pace- anyway what did you do in the diablo for fun? front surfing? occassional enders? creeking?

I'm not familiar with the Savage gravity

An OC1 will be more forgiving- but if you want to play and/or you have a good k1 roll- you can probably learn to roll c1 fairly quickly- I think the ability to roll and dtermination to roll swaps from boat to boat.

So if you want to play and dont mind flipping get a c1 or convert-

if you want to creek get a plastic oc1 or zephyr pardaigm maxim - but the really small plastic boats will be about as tippy as a converted c1-- Oh BTW I think the Diablo will be too narrow and not a god conversion- though stable as a k1 even at 190- I think it would be extremely tippy as a c1-

i used the diablo for river-running lite play and lite creeking. and changing to oc1 or c1 for river running and lite creeking.
i think i will demo the Esquif Taureau at noc.
thanks
dan

Have you tried an open boat yet? They can be the largest and heaviest of boats you will want to try (with the exception of some of the tinier rodeo-oriented "Fly's" and Esquif boats). I agree with Bill about your boats if you try and convert them. They WILL NOT be good learning boats as c-1's for you.

Open boats afford you escapability (new word? ), but, in my opinion, may hinder how quickly you evolve as a single blader (read: playboat/rodeo moves, running familiar class 4 stuff, creekin', etc.)--though you can eventually get to the point of doin' all of that plus more in an open boat.

C-1's WILL give you a steep learning curve--primarily in rolling and staying upright. Once you get good at that, river running should progress quickly. It may be best to start with a boat that does not have flat/sharp ends (trip chines ). Try a creekin'-type boat first.

Keep us up-to-date and have fun!

KNeal

BTW, better to start kneeling with your feet flat whenever you have a chance

ezwater wrote:My only thought is that the selection of "real" c-1s is very limited, and finding a good converted kayak is difficult. I would recommend a Class V glass Atom as a nice firm (stable) and capable river runner. I have not paddled a Finkenmeister, but it would be worth considering also.

all the studs c1ing hard class five water are paddling what? thats right... converted kayaks!

come on man! a kayak that has been converted IS A REAL C1. if your mind is open to this, then your selection is not so limited.

that said... whew i think an oc would be more of a kick in the pants for you than a decked boat.

It would definately be hard to get used to an OC regarding the fact that you'd be taking on water and bailing a lot.

Nate

taking on water won't be that much of an issue in a Taureau as there's not enough room for water to be an issue. It's a great boat and soon you should be able to get one you can put a skirt on. just my 2 cents worth.

waterboy wrote:looking at Esquif Paradigm or Esquif Nitro. or changing my eskimo diablo or savage gravity for first single blade boat.
thanks
dan

Yes. If you are a proficient kayaker either OC1 or C1 will work for you. I agree with earlier posts, if you are a really big person or have knee trouble, the OC1 will be more comfortable; if you are a hard-playing kayaker converting one of your present boats is an option but C-boats designed as C-boats will have better speed and glide and respond better as you are getting used to the single bladed paddle.

Re which Esquif boat, I have not paddled either but those hard chines may take some getting used to. You might want to try a more traditional soft chined canoe. If howver you are used to and love edgy boats, if you have an opportunity, hop in a Spanish Fly or Superfly just to see what you think. They are loads of fun, as is the Taureau.

If you mostly do river running and light play in a kayak and want to do similar in a OC1, you want a boat with some acceleration. A Taureau is going to seem really doggy. So will a Nitro. The Paradigm is better. A Prodigy or Prodigy X will have even better hull speed. An Ocoee would be a boat you could grow into, though the sharp chines take some getting used to Definitely try before you buy. I have seen a number of kayakers convert to OC1 and they generally pick it up fast--a lot faster than someone going from flatwater canoeing to whitewater canoeing.

There ya go - 10 posts other than the original author's, and all 10 give different advice. Ya gotta love c-boating!

John

Hello Dan,
Be careful with C1 conversions. A new C1er could get very discouraged if he choses to convert the wrong kayak. Some kayaks make lousey C1's. Some kayaks make darn good C1's. It is hard to know the difference when you are getting started.
It might be helpful to start with a forgiving boat that will allow you to make mistakes without alot of consequences.
If you start with a proven C1 design (ex: Cascade, Atom, Finkenmeister) you are more likely to become a competent C1er, OR if you know an experienced C1er who can help you convert a recommended kayak (ex: Pyranha H3, Pyranha Burn) you will stand a better chance.
We need more C1ers in the boating community. I have seen many potential C1ers quit the C1 due to a bad start in a bad boat or an uncomfortable boat (read pain ) Fitting the boat to your body dimensions and flexibility is critical. So, I hope all this commentary helps you get it right.
SYOTR,
Bruce
P.S. John Coraor, you made alot of sense to me .

I'm with FarrenBruce, or whatever. Trouble is, we have very few new, true c-1 designs to compare with converted kayaks. C-1 designs have not caught up. One consequence of this is that people paddling converted kayaks do not have a modern basis for comparison.

So, Larry, if you're happy with conversions, that's fine, but I don't see any reason to paddle ANY kayak converted to c-1 that I would not choose to paddle as a kayak. That pretty much closes the field for me.