C-Forum

Given the fading interest in the Drakkar Wheelboy and Robson Finkenmeister (I own both), and continuing strong interest in kayak conversions, we cannot expect future original C1 designs in plastic. Forget the Drakkar Fatboy.
I hope to God I am wrong - but the future of C1 Designs in plastic looks increasingly bleak .

Someone might say ' who cares?'.

Reliance on kayak designs will inherently mean the C1er will be compromising his performance on the river. This is just a matter of basic design principle. That doesn't mean the C1er won't be able to find suitable boats to convert. He is doing this now and will continue. It DOES mean that he will likely be getting sub-optimal performance - without fully realizing it . But the C1er will soldier on . I will be soldiering on.

I was really looking forward to checking out the Fatboy design.

SYOTR,

Bruce

Bruce Farrenkopf wrote:It DOES mean that he will likely be getting sub-optimal performance

You're right, but you also have to keep in mind that paddling outdated designs because they're "real" C-1's will have detrimental effects on your performance as well- maybe in more so that paddling conversion. Whenever there's a "new" C-1 that hits the market, it's not long at all until something more interesting and newer comes along that you have to rip the outfitting out of. I'd say that the vast majority of the people getting into C-1 today are doing so in converted boats-because they've got an extra kayak in the garage, and last year's playboat is less alien to them than an Atom or Cascade.

It's kind of catch-22. The paddlers who want cutting edge performance will continue to paddle conversions. The paddlers who want to paddle "real" C-1's are forced to paddle outdated designs. Many times those are the type of boats they're more interested in paddling anyway. I'm not really interested in paddling a boat like an atom, or a Fink, or really even a Wheelboy, so I paddle a converted kayak, and it seems to me that a lot of the C-1 market is folks who are more interested in cruising type boats. So a market that's too small to be of interest to manufacturers is divided into even smaller pieces. Like it or not, the fact of the matter is that it just doesn't make economic sense for manufacturers to invest money in a C-1. If you can't appeal to the cutting edge, it's hard to sell boats.

I see the same thing happening with OC-1. Most open boaters lament the fact that there are few new OC-1's out there. The biggest reason is that there are fewer and fewer open boaters out there. Why? It's hard to attract new people to OC-1 with boats that are twice as long as the kayaks that people are paddling. Short boats are just more fun, plain and simple. People who have been paddling 12 ft long boats for years might not think so, but then again, they're not the ones who need to have the sport marketed to them. It needs to be hip and sexy if you want to attract new people, and a big canoe ain't gonna do it. You need boats in the 7 foot range for that. I know a lot of the open boaters are scoffing at that, and that's just the problem. And I'm not talking about 7 foot long rodeo boats that you can't paddle down river, I mean 7 foot long boats that you can play in and river run. The SpanishFly is a good example, but it's outdated...

The inherent problem is that the community has created a situation where there's no market for the new and cutting edge and sexy and attractive. So fewer and fewer people are attracted to and get into c-1 and oc-1, and the market shrinks, becomes complacent with outdated designs, and doesn't give the manufacturers any incentive to produce new cutting edge attractive designs, and the whole thing snowballs.

Kudos to Drakkar for trying to kick-start it, but I think it's too little, too late. I'll certainly agree that the death of the plastic C-1 is upon us. Those of us who choose to convert kayaks will continue soldiering on as well.

Quite the rant, huh?
Jeremy

Jeremy,

Thanks for your comments .
I agree with most of what you say.

It needs to be stressed that a NEW C1 design should be given serious consideration. Purchase the boat if you like the features. Give it a fair shake. This will tend to stimulate new C1 designs. Looking for a sexy kayak to convert may be cool, but it dooms any stimulus for new plastic C1 design.

That said, I am ready to accept the inevitable.

SYOTR,

Bruce

That said, I am ready to accept the inevitable.

...and start paddling a FREE h3?

Bruce;

There has always been something wrong in my mind with buying a new C1 design and having to immediately make major modifications to the outfitting as has been discussed on this list serve to exhaustion regarding the Fink. That said, I'm finally over it mentally and would like to give one a try. Now can someone tell me where in the Southeast a person could demo one or even just buy one on blind faith? Sure Robson has designed and produced a plastic C1, but I don't think they are marketing and distributing it effectively to the C1 paddling community.

I think the future is in new materials... I have a dream of a new material that is light, tough durable, resilient, repairable , and doesn't require a $50K mold... A dream where boats are quickly and easily made to custom order. My sci-fi level dream has the boat modifiable on the river...

I have a friend who is an awesome kayaker and kayak instructor. One night at the pool roll session, he got into a converted Bliss Stick Scud and paddled it around like he'd been single blading all his life. The next week, he bought a Zephyr and has been paddling it ever since.
I have two other kayaking friends who have gone thru similar transformations. I think open boating at least may be making a small comeback. If it does, it may help out decked canoeing.

One of the reasons that single blading has fewer participants is the difficulty factor. Controlling a boat with one blade is just plain harder than learning to do it with two. That's never going to change.

A friend who skis recently asked me why anyone would want to paddle OC or C1 in whitewater, given the 'limitations' compared to kayaking. So I returned with "why would anyone want to use telemark skis instead of fixed heel?" And he replied, 'because they're bored with fixed heel and want something that's harder to do." Bingo. At least for me, that's one of the reasons I like my OC. I'm not willing to ratchet up to ever harder and more dangerous stuff to get my 'challenge' fix, so I choose a craft that requires really good technique to be able to style class 3. But that's also why you're just never going to have masses of people swarming to c boating - the masses want it easy and quick...

BTW, I don't think 'short' by itself is what we need. Forgiving and maneuverable is what you need for an entry level boat. Can anyone tell me if any of the 'short' OCs, either current or out of production, is beginner friendly the way a Burn or a Diesel is for a kayaker? I can't imagine putting a beginner in something like a Zoom, a Prelude or one of those plastic rodeo OCs.

The Esquif Taureau is (IMO) a pretty beginner friendly short boat.
Surfs nice too.
Tough to cartwheel.

Tommy

Tommy T wrote:The Esquif Taureau is (IMO) a pretty beginner friendly short boat.
Surfs nice too.
Tough to cartwheel.

Tommy

Enders nearly out of the water... like a rocketship!

I agree...and disagree....

this is not the first time we've seen the "death" of the plastic C1 .

Everything goes in cycles...in the Northeast US, for instance, I've seen a real surge in the number of open boaters lately. I don't know why, but most open boats that have appeared in the "for sale" area of a few boards I check out have been picked up pretty quickly (always exceptions, of course).

I'm not sure how many folks will move on to decked boats, but I suspect a few will.

I think the lack of plastic C1 designs also has to do with how competative the kayak designs have become - several new boats a year, lower margins = less $ for other projects.

The number of old boats out there doesn't help either - how many of us have actually puchased a NEW boat? The last one I bought was a Wheelboy, and it was MUCH more than I usually pick up an old CBoat for...but I wanted to support a new company, and admittedly it is a great boat. In the entire "collection" three of the boats (Wheelboy, Groove, Atom) I've bought new. You could also argue the Maven, but since I built it I won't count it.

Regarding new designs I think a lot of you should SERIOUSLY consider glass boats - either buying them (custom made to your exact specs is not much more than a new plastic boat...resell value has definitely been higher lately), or building them.

I've built one "bleeding edge" boat, and am working on a "cutting edge" one now. Yes, squirt boats, but that's where there is a real lacking of possibilities for us smaller CBoaters. Yes, the new one is planned to be wider than the last. We'll see if I can get it completed in less time than the last one (which was about 4 years...).

Adam

Hello Larry,

...and start paddling a FREE h3?

Thanks for the offer on the H3. I haven't forgotten. I am looking forward to the Spring and seeing you in good boating form. Pray for more snow in the Sierra.

I will be in the Finkenmeister .

SYOTR,

Bruce

Did the plastic C-1 ever really mature as a market? Do you need more the two hands to count'em?

Not to sound to snarky here; but, I think we are fortunate to have the selection we have. As the WB and Finky age there really is not enough "churn" out there to support something new. I guess that is the point.... Soon things will age enough to "churn" the market and we will have a purpose built C-1. Who knows maybe Dane Jackson will pick up the C.

[quote=]"Soon things will age enough to "churn" the market and we will have a purpose built C-1. Who knows maybe Dane Jackson will pick up the C.[/quote]

Dane is paddling C1... but don't hold yer breath
http://www.jacksonrec.com/index.cfm
http://www.jacksonrec.com/kayaks/kayaks.cfm

I know he was paddling a C-1 when they passed through here for the Potomac Riverfest. Probably just a novelty...