Kayaks as a C-1

[RyanGarnett]

Hi All,

Last summer I bought a ww kayak (wavesport zg54). I have grown up whitewater tandom canoe tripping, so I want to get back in a canoe. My issue is that I have really bad knees, so sitting in an OC1 is a little hard for me. I was wondering if I will experience any issues or drawbacks paddling my kayak as a C-1 without outfitting it? Any insights, stories or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx,

Ryan

[sbroam]

Do you me paddling from a seated position with a canoe paddle? Awkward, uncomfortable, and ineffective at best - maybe with a very short paddle, but not likely. On a couple of occasions while open boating I have loaned my spare paddle to a kayaker and while they have been able to get along, it certainly hasn't been something they wanted to keep doing...

[John Coraor]

I would agree with Scott.

One of the things that makes a C-1 stroke more powerful (stroke for stroke) than a kayak stroke is the higher body position achieved through knealing. A kayak makes up for this deficiency by achieving a faster stroke rate, due to the double bladed paddle. By sitting in the bottom of a kayak, but using a canoe paddle you gain none of the advantages yet all of the disadvantages of each.

It may not be your preferred style of paddling, but it is possible to paddle easier whitewater (Class II) while seated (not knealing) in a cruising style open canoe (e.g. Mad River Explorer). Spreading your knees wide and pressing them against the gunnels helps to provide some of the bracing lost when you abandon the more traditional knealing position. Obviously this practice doesn't work with a dedicated WW canoe with pedestal seat and thigh straps, but is adequate in most whitewater capable cruising canoes.

John

[Open Gate]

Ouch...don't go there,

I can't see any good paddling a kayak with a C1 blade (if that's what you're reffering to ).

As Sbroam mentionned your blade would definitely have to be very short since your center of gravity is way lower in a kayak. Making the cross moves very inneficient. Your reach would then be down to minimum and power very weak since all the thrust we get from the knealed position would also be voided

I've had 6 knee surgeries (running back college football...) and do struggle a bit on long days with knee pain, may I suggest :

1 - raising your seat a bit to releave the pressure on your knees
2 - Paddle a modern open boat (Almost any Esquif will do) they're wider, more stable then C1's, therefore raising your seat doesn't impact your balance as much. Getting out of your boat on shore to empty it will also give your knees a break.
3 - I found a way to sit down on all my open boats seats for flat water paddling which you can't do in a C1 and also gives the knees a break.

That's the best I can come up with...

Good luck !

[TomAnon]

Good Question Ryan. I have been struggling with this one. The ZG54 is a pretty decent kayak. If you are happy with it and your knees do not hurt when paddling I think you should probably stick with it. It is better to be on the water and be comfortable than to try and force the issue and be in a lot of pain. The ZG54 would require a lot of work to convert to C1 and it would not convert back to K1 very easily either. With a low pedestal to acheive any kind of stability it will put a lot of stress on your knees.

If you want to get back into Canoeing, then maybe an open boat, OC1, would do as the seat height can be much taller and thus take more stress off your knees. It will still require you to kneel and put weight on your knees. A simple exercise at home with a small exercise ball or a basketball will help you make that determination. Try kneeling with the "ball" as a seat and see how your knees hold up. If you can handle it for 20 minutes, you should be able to work at it and get that time extended. Muscles can be stetched and rebuilt slowly. Ligaments can only be stretched, slowly. Scar tissue, lost cartilage, debris, etc. can make things more painfull and may put the whole canoeing thing aside.

See how that goes before you jump into a conversion on what is already a pretty nice kayak.

[RyanGarnett]

Thanks for all your great insight. It really helps and it was something that I assumed and knew, I just wanted to see what others have done and their insight. Like TomAnon has said, I don't want to wreck a nice kayak by outfitting it and end up not liking it. I have been thinking about this for some time. I have come across two OC1 for sale and I was wondering what your opinions would be on them; Dagger Rival and Robson CUFly, I know, two very different boats. I want to do some surfing and some river running. In a perfect world having two boats would be the best, but with lack of available funds, I will have to do it with one boat at the moment. Just curious if I would be better off with one boat over the other? Any thoughts?

Thanx again,

Ryan

[John Coraor]

Ryan:

It would be tough to find two more dissimilar boats. I think that you've got two questions: 1) What type of paddling are you really interested in doing? and 2) What will your knees tolerate?

The first question is important as there is not much common ground in the performance profile of these two boats. As to the second, I would expect that the Rival is going to be more friendly to your knees, both in terms of stress while in paddling position and tolerance for being stable when you come out of the braces during those inevitable flatwater sections.

John

[RyanGarnett]

Thanks John. I know that the boats are at the opposite end of the spectrum. What I am hoping to do as paddling goes, is surf in some waves (no cart wheels or anything) mostly surf and spins, but I also would like to be able to paddle some class III+ rivers. There are some very different types of places where I paddle here. Some small standing waves, to a full surfing river to a river with 21km of continuous whitewater. So I know that the boats are totally different and the things I want to do are different as well. I thought that the Rival would probably be the best fit, but I was wondering how the CUFly would hold up? I imagine it spins on a dime and carves with the best of them. Any idea how it would be on a full day river trip, where picking lines is important? Obviously it will be like paddling a kayak on the flat water.

Thanx again,

Ryan

[Open Gate]

Hey Ryan, here's my 2 cents...

I own a CU fly and have paddled the Rival a few times.
As John mentionned they behave completely differently.

The CU fly is the worst river running boat on the market. I own 9 boats and one of them is a slow Quake from Dagger, and this boat has got warp speed compared to the CU fly...
The ends are so low that you can ender, just like a kayak in turbulent water or when punching a hole. did I just say punching a hole...forget it, you aint punching anything with that boat ! And that's the intent, you want to stay right there and have a ball.

That being said, this boat is the best rodeo open boat available !(OK maybe the salsa from Esquif is there too) And is made of plastic.
Once on a wave or hole this boat is magnificient. Getting there is the challenge ! The seat comes standard at around 10'' high if I remember well which is great for the knees and the sides are so high and bottom so wide that this height is actually necessary.

Now the Rival is a fine river running boat but is made of Royalex. You'll go places you can even dream of in a CU fly. You can also carry gear in it for small trips and punch holes. It's fine for surfing not spining and decades away from the CU fly's wave / hole performance.

In conclusion, if I may do a parrallel with biking and XC ski, you're comparing a mountain bike with full suspension with a speed bike or Back country skiing with high speed skating.

What do you want to do ??? From what I read keep the Rival sell the CU fly (small market for those though !)

May I suggest keep both !

Happy paddling !

[RyanGarnett]

Thanks Open Gate. That is what I suspected, but its great to hear it from someone that has paddled them and even better from someone that owns one of the boats. I don't own either boats. This original post came out because I own a Wavesport kayak and I am wanting to go back to canoeing. The issue I have always had was my knees are bad. So I wanted to know about using my boat for a canoeing. Then I came across these boats for sale. So I wanted to ask around and found out what I figured. I am more into river running, but there are some great surfing waves around, so I don't want to count that out.

Thanx again,

Ryan

[boatbuster]

Ryan,

Keep in mind that whether you are able to kneel any length of time in a canoe will depend greatly on the outfitting. There are many options available but they all involve kneeling. However a higher seat and lots of foam padding in that Rival, along with frequent breaks to stretch, might do the trick. If you were in fact considering converting the kayak, don't. Just about any kayak conversion you will be sitting on your ankles which is the worst possible position if you have knee trouble.

If you get the Rival I would suggest a wide foam pedestal, as high as you can make it and not be too tippy. Maybe 9 inches? You could also outfit it with a higher seat behind the kneeling seat so you can sit up from time to time and give your knees a break. The Rival has less rocker than some other OC1s, so it should remain fairly stable from that higher position, although you would want to drop back down to the kneeling position for class III or harder rapids.

The Rival is very fast and stable, but does not turn as well as the Mad River Outrage I use as my main big water, creeking boat. It will front surf all day long, does not spin great but is plenty fast to go from eddy to wave. Good luck with your canoeing!

[RyanGarnett]

Thanks BoatBuster, its all great information and I am taking it all in. I really appreciate all the info you can give.