C-Forum

Following on from a previous thread I wondered what other people thought about the outfiting on my Prelude. I'm not sure where I got the ideas from or whether they are any good.



I raised the saddle a little bit as it seemed rather low to start with and was a little uncomfortable for any length of time. Also put in a couple of 2" plastic tubes to let water pass across the dam.



I cut out some of the foam on the sides of the knee cup to get my knees a little wider than previous.



As I found the pegs very uncomfortable I decided to get rid of them altogether, replacing them with a couple of foam blocks which are bolted through the saddle providing an anchor point for straps in the process.



For straps I used a couple of diving weight belts cut to size. I can either grab the buckle or the end of the strap to undo, though I don't think I could get out without undoing the strap.



This leaves my foot flat under my bum as I suppose you would have in a C1.

I would be very interested to see what others think of this setup as I have seen nothing like it, but find it works well for me.

Jon

In the immortal words of Frankie Hubbard, “Man you Cobbed it all up”. Whatever he meant by that term I’m not sure, but I’m sure he would say it face-to-face.

You asked for the critic, so here goes. It looks like you worked way hard. Way too hard not to have a better system. From the pictures, it looks like you’re sitting too far backward. I would recommend cutting the bulkhead a bit on the inside areas (top, left, and right). I’d also trim down (narrowing), the saddle under the gonad area. If you could slide more forward, with the bulkhead further up on your thighs. You might get away from the straps, I did.

The utter joy of the bulkhead system was getting rid of the straps. I had them in my first Skeeter, which was a carbon/s-glass pre-savage version. This was Skeeter number two. Frankie had just started with the bulkhead system, and I had only seen it in his personal boat (the proto-type). Coming from the high-n-low school of straps I thought it needed more than just a bulkhead. Strap’em up tight! Finally after really getting up under the foam bulkhead, it was the last time I used straps in a creek boat. The ability to LITERALLY step in and out of the boat, at will, anyplace, anytime, under any condition is invaluable. I hardly boat with any open canoers, and my normal paddling partners are always amazed at how fast I get the water out. The times they’ve boated with another canoe they always remark about how long so-and-so took. That he couldn’t keep up. That he couldn’t step out on the rock in the middle of XYZ123 so he carried water into the next drop. That he wasn’t able to check for trees, so what good was he. And that they wouldn’t be boating with any more open canoers. It always amazes me the talk about this strap or that. Maybe for loops and cartwheels a bulkhead with straps, but even foam hip blocks would appear better. They feel like death straps, now that I’ve gotten away from them.

Personally I find it impossible to have a permanent one position foot block. The weather around here means one day its one layer on bottom, the next it’s three, and in summer … If I’m crusing around, I back off the tension. At the top of something really big, they get real tight. Sometimes I’ll sit-up right on top of the saddle (like a chair), and slide the toe blocks forward to brace off of. When my knee has swollen a bit and doesn’t want to bend, I simply move that one out-of-the way.

With a little petroleum based contact cement, you can get rid of the duct tape. I wouldn’t want the duct tape under my breathable dry suit. And with a little sandpaper you can make cut foam, look like it came from the factory.

Other than that, I would say you’re on the right track.

bathtub Man, very interesting setup. I've seen some of the videos of you and your rigging obviously works well for you.

Like I said in another thread, after seeing the footage of you in your boat, you recommitted me to taming the prelude.

To philcanoe

"Sometimes I’ll sit-up right on top of the saddle (like a chair)"

Unbelivable! In prelude??? When I,m sitting in normal position boat stability is just dime better than beam

sitting up in a Prelude ... no problem, you can dance in a Prelude..it'll also surf well from the top of the saddle or standing.

...sitting up in my Fly that's a little more interesting, but I've paddled most of the Selway sitting up on the saddle...due to blowing out a knee at the putin ... Too dam hard to get the permit, and the shuttle was done!!!!

straps are death traps??
i think wedging yerself up to your gonads into foam is asking for trouble. you can climb out of straps in any situation (i'm thinking pins here). with a bulkhead there's only one way out.

philcanoe wrote:

You asked for the critic, so here goes. It looks like you worked way hard. Way too hard not to have a better system. From the pictures, it looks like you’re sitting too far backward. I would recommend cutting the bulkhead a bit on the inside areas (top, left, and right). I’d also trim down (narrowing), the saddle under the gonad area. If you could slide more forward, with the bulkhead further up on your thighs. You might get away from the straps, I did.

I suppose I did ask for it. It's unlikely however that I will be changing this system anytime soon, as it seems to work very well for me. I paddled a fly for a year with just the bulkhead system and footpegs and found it very uncomfortable, constantly having to move the footpegs for comfort/control. The system I have now on my prelude slowly evolved on the fly, with the big difference berween the two being the height of the saddle.

As regards a bulkhead system and straps being a deathtrap, I think if you were pinned to the back deck it would be very difficult to get out of. I'm not sure I would recommend this to anyone else, and I was expecting some negative comments about it but for me it gives a great feeling of connection with the boat.

Jon

I’ll agree with Philcanoe. The straps are completely unnecessary (plus I just hate straps). You should be able to easily do away with them and accomplish the same goals.

The bulkhead system is awesome. Take full advantage.

I just completed my first bulkhead set up in an open canoe, I think it is even the first bulkhead set up I've ever been able to *use* in an open canoe as I've never been able to fit in anybody else's bulkhead set up. To be honest, I was skeptical about how secure it would be, having been a long time fan of a good double thigh strap set up, but... I've been pleasantly surprised. I knew about the in-and-out ease as I have a Slasher (C-1) with the factory set up (a solid plastic bulkhead). I've also experimented with a combo set up in a converted Score - a sort of adjustable bulkhead secure my knees and straps hold me down in the seat - these are a great set of quick release straps otherwise I'd be hesitant to use both components - the handy part is that I can paddle, even roll the Score with just the bulkhead.

I had some concerns about the lack of adjustability, but since setting up the boat I've paddled with a variety of layers and shoes and I have realized it's not going to be a problem. I've paddled some bigger water, rolled, surfed, and otherwise goofed around and it's been secure and comfortable.

I still have lingering concerns about what would happen in a bow down pin, but a lot of you that creek don't seem to have that concern (but some of you do).

Actually I feel that a bulkhead is safer in a bow down pin. The only true bow down pin that I was in was in a Perception saddle (almost bulkhead/Whitesell). Enough water pushed forward on my back that the aluminum thwarts (both of them) pushed up and forward, making them crescent shaped. In this situation I was glad there was a thwart in front to push off of. Actually I stood up on the thwart and climbed down the canoe. I was surely glad to have the thwart in front, and not have a setup with only a thwart behind. The next pin or would have been pin, was on Little River Falls (Alabama). The boat hit hard enough that the spruce thwart broke at the screw hole, the bulkhead broke free, the saddle pushed forward/out, and I went through three of the nylon air bag lacing. In both situations I was glad not to have thigh straps to content with. I also believe that there’s an entanglement factor with straps, especially with all the extra pull string releases and elastic stay in place systems. Another factor is stress placed on ABS anchors. You can see the effects on many an aging canoe. While this is a non-factor in glass boats, the use of glue in place straps has resulted in many a failed setup. Back in the day of big booming canoe enders, it was common to see pulled up and pulled through straps. Plus with a bulkhead you can step out on the smallest rock, in the biggest rapid, step right back in and go. Step right back in and go. I have yet to see a strap system that you can do that with. As for being trapped in a bulkhead, I guess you can get trapped in any system. I feel that it’s less likely to happen in this one, as all you have to do is slip you’re feet off of the toe/foot blocks and you’re free.

Jon don’t change your system, it works for you. It allows you to do what you want. That’s cool. I’m just playing Devil’s Advocate. There appears to be many a beginner on this site looking for ways to do things. Your straps were exactly what I wanted at one time. I used them for years and never had any problems.

Peace, good discussion!

I like bulkhead systems, but I came to the conclusion that for my body type (long skinny legs), they don't work on their own.
Once I have it tight enough that I don't start to slide out when upside down or get scuked out in holes, it gets extremely hard to get out of the boat and I feel really 'trapped' inside. Once I loosen it off to be able to get out easily, I will start to slide out when upside down or get sucked out in holes.
I have since switched on virtually all my boats to a combination of short bulkhead/kneeblock and thigh strap (or in case of my Prelude VW beetle style lap belt).
I can't just jump in and out as others do with their bulkhead setups, but neither could I once I had my bulkhead as tight as it needed to be for me to stay in my boat.
Just my 2 cents.

martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

"sitting up in a Prelude ... no problem, you can dance in a Prelude..it'll also surf well from the top of the saddle or standing. "

O, my God, I cant even do this in my Zephyr.
OK. I understand, OC is not for me.
I will sell out canoes, and go back to kayaks

I would be very worried about getting out of that setup.

Nice set up,

Did the same thing in my CU Fly(added the straps).

The foam bulkhead is great, but when I tipped in very powerfull currents while surfing or playing (i.e Garb on the Ottawa) I would get stripped right out of the boat, no matter how hard I braced my legs in the boat. Since getting out of my boat is not my prefered way of getting out of a hole, I'd rather it takes a bit more time when I do chose to swim then swiming when I don't want to !

With your foot blocks squeezing your feet in the bottom of the boat I found that when the boat did fill up, it would load the bottom of the boat and release my feet from the blocks, more reason to add the thigh straps.

Pinning, we're talking Prelude right, which has got fair size volume.(compared to any kayak or small OC playboat). Though it is possible to pin a big open boat, it's highly improbable and you better be way off your line for this to happen. And again, getting your feet off the pegs is all that you need to get out. Back pinning...come on, how unfortunate(or bad paddler) can you be

As long as you have enough experience to stay calm and release the thigh straps when you do chose to swim I think it's a non issue.
BTW, If I chose to swim in my G-Force 6.3 C1 I have one more step, skirt to remove to get out

Happy paddling !

Back pinning...come on, how unfortunate(or bad paddler) can you be

come on now...

i know i'm not the only one to run some completely bogus line going backwards!

... why do you suppose kayaks have such large cockpits now? so you can climb out knees first if you need to. right? that's how i like my boats to be set up. unfotunately my "real" c1's have this silly tiny little cockpit...