C-Forum

I am in the process of outfitting a new Ocoee and planned to make a simple lightweight saddle out of minicell foam using Mike Yee double thigh straps versus using a Mohawk/belt saddle like I installed in my last Ocoee.

I am trying to decide if I want or should install a seat thwart. This boat has wood Gunwales and seems plenty stiff without an additional seat thwart in comparison to vinyl gunwales on my last Ocoee.

The additional seat thwart in my last boat was helpful in dumping the boat and for putting the boat on and off the car. However, I kind of thought it increased entrapment possibilities, as I had a few swims where it took extra effort to get my leg out around the thwart.

I also have an Outrage with thigh straps and a small saddle without the thwart and it seems to work fine. I think thigh straps should be plenty to hold me down in the boat and on the seat. The seat is really for only setting on, right. So do I really need this extra weight and increased entrapment risk? Any thoughts are welcome.

If I decide to install the thwart what do you guys recommend for attaching to the thwart to the seat? My Mohawk saddle came with a round metal thing that went down into the seat and bolted threw the thwart. If I do this, where can get one of those things?

Thanks for the input.

If you have a fairly low, wide saddle that is glued down to the bottom of the boat there should not be too much flex in it. If you use one of the higher, longer saddles, the thwart across the back will keep the saddle from moving side to side. Like so many outfitting questions it is really a matter of personal preference. A regular thart going from gunnel to gunnel behind the seating position should not pose an entrapment hazard, but if you have extra long legs you might want to skip that.

Not sure where to get one of those things you mentioned for attaching the thwart to the sadle. On my thwart across the back of my saddle I used a couple of small metal brackets with duct tape wrapped around them on either side.

Yes, personal preference.

re attaching the thwart to the seat, I'm not that you have to do that. Just having the thwart run across the top of the foam saddle will help. If you wish to attach them, you could insert wood vertically into the foam and screw the thwart to it.

Actually, a thwart across the seat back is considered by many an entrapment danger. What's more, it's really not needed. I have 8 solo canoes and none of them has a thwart attached to the seat back. And, knock on wood, I've never had a seat come off. I have had to remove seats on canoes I bought used and found they do tend to be really well on there with just contact cement. You have to dig underneath them everywhere with a paint scraper to get them off.

What is important is that you do a good job of gluing the seat. Be sure to roughen up the canoe's vinyl with 125-grit sandpaper where you're going to glue the seat. Use the right contact cement. Follow the instructions on temperature and everything else--including putting two coats of the cement on the seat bottom.

One more thing. After gluing a seat down and pressing down on it and standing on it, I usually leave it for 24 hours with a 80-pound bag of sand on it. Just for good measure.

milkman wrote:Actually, a thwart across the seat back is considered by many an entrapment danger. What's more, it's really not needed. I have 8 solo canoes and none of them has a thwart attached to the seat back. .

Actually it's a matter of opinion, just like choice of boat.

I consider lack of a rear thwart an entrapment danger. I feel like it creates a roll cage (sort of) helping the boat from collapsing in the event of a side pin. Like around a tree, been there, done that. Also having a thwart in front and behind gives you something to grap, pull up, or push off of in the event of a bow/stern pin. Been there done, done that. They could also help keep you from being folded over, in a serious pin situation. I have 10 whitewater canoes and none has only one thwart. Never once have I been entrapped in the boat because of the thwart. Two thwarts also help stiffen the bottom.

I usually glue the bottom with petroleum based contact cement. And then screw through the thwart, into a piece of pressure treated wood. Cut a short section of 2by(?) into a 1.5x1.5, and glue into saddle. I use 3" stainless screws, found at a local Nut-n-Bolt house. Bomber, never a problem!

Be carefull of wrapping wooden thwarts with duct tape. Have had a dry rot problem, resulting in equipment failure. At the bottom of a big drop, thwart broke, and bulkhead went with it.

Well, I typed this reply yesterday, must have gotten lost in the ether - and now after seeing these other posts, I've refined my thought a little :

After hearing an oft repeated story of how a friend of mine was trapped in his canoe on the Ocoee (had to be cut out) I am no fan of *UNSUPPORTED* kneeling thwarts in a *WHITEWATER* canoe. What started out as a "gotcha" (in Gonzo Shoals, I think) resulted in the boat swamping and collapsing the thwart over his ankles.

I *do* like the idea of a pedestal with a thwart bracing it - like the "roll cage" image Phil described, but... Don't make the fit too tight. I've seen many canoes (and some of them mine) with a rectangular wear patch on the bottom that is the exact shape and size as the pedestal because the boat won't flex there. I think Chris Kelly and I have the same thinking on this - leave a little room for movement but not so much that the pedestal can "escape" the thwart.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned a piece of metal that Mohawk (?) had on the thwart that fit into the pedestal - it's just strip of aluminum bent into a squared off "U" with the legs stuck into the minicell and screwed to the thwart. That is adequate for a glued in pedestal (mainly has to resist left/ right forces). In a boat where I move the pedestal, I used a piece of square, vinyl downspout that makes for a more secure fit. I'll take some pictures.

All that said, my Zephyr, now with a bulkhead, does *not* have a thwart over the pedestal. Yet. As I am thinking of securing my rear bag cage (now that the original anchors are blown) to the block with the end of the foot brace track, I'm probably going to add some foam so the pedestal *is* braced under the thwart (it will need something resist the uplift of the bags in a swamped boat, something more than a few square inches of contact cement).

I like having the thwart in my boat, but then I'm using that big, long Mohawk saddle. I sit on it any time I am not running a drop, since my nerves have never adjusted to being compressed constantly - had 'drop foot' for nearly a week after a day where I stayed in the straps the whole time.

I can see where it does increase the risk a little - once or twice when I bailed out, I had to extract my foot from under the thwart. However, that also happened once in a boat without a thwart (somehow the foot ended up caught in one of the thigh straps). In my boat, the thwart is far enough back that it shouldn't pose a problem of folding on top of me while I'm still in the outfitting.

I've been in thwartless boats before, and sitting up on the back of the saddle is possible but causes some major flex/squish. I'd be afraid doing that all the time would make the saddle fall apart. In any case, I assume I'm an outlier, since it seems like most c boaters don't mind kneeling 100% of the time.

I have 10 whitewater canoes and none has only one thwart.

I never suggested you should have just have a single thwart in the canoe. I just said you shouldn't have it located over the seat back. That's the entrapment issue. You should locate that rear thwart a few inches back from the seat back. People have been pinned backwards in a canoe and unable to get their legs out because of a thwart over a seat. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I added an over-the-saddleback thwart to my Outrage.

I like it because 1) no saddle wobble, and 2) it gives me more to press against with my tailbone, I really like having a substantive saddle behind me.

For me, I don't find it a threat for entrapment. Certainly not compared to my C-1.

I don't actually have the thwart fixed to the saddle. I carved out a notch in the foam where the thwart "floats". Actually, I carved the thwart-spot out of an extra piece of foam and glued that to the back of my original saddle - which also places it slightly farther back, and may help with lessening entrapment concerns.

PY.

I *do* like the idea of a pedestal with a thwart bracing it - like the "roll cage" image Phil described, but... Don't make the fit too tight. I've seen many canoes (and some of them mine) with a rectangular wear patch on the bottom that is the exact shape and size as the pedestal because the boat won't flex there. I think Chris Kelly and I have the same thinking on this - leave a little room for movement but not so much that the pedestal can "escape" the thwart. "

I have boats with and without a saddle thwart. I get the same wear pattern on the bottom of the boats regardless. Must be a function of my large unyieding rear end.

Jim P wrote:

I *do* like the idea of a pedestal with a thwart bracing it - like the "roll cage" image Phil described, but... Don't make the fit too tight. I've seen many canoes (and some of them mine) with a rectangular wear patch on the bottom that is the exact shape and size as the pedestal because the boat won't flex there. I think Chris Kelly and I have the same thinking on this - leave a little room for movement but not so much that the pedestal can "escape" the thwart. "

I have boats with and without a saddle thwart. I get the same wear pattern on the bottom of the boats regardless. Must be a function of my large unyieding rear end.

Good point - I didn't have a control for my experiment! I'm going to need another couple of canoes...

milkman wrote:

I have 10 whitewater canoes and none has only one thwart.

I never suggested you should have just have a single thwart in the canoe.

My illogical assumption, I just really dislike the one center thwart..
It's just a guess but thwart placement and pin potential, is likely
influenced by length of the saddle.