C-Forum

I was talking to a fellow who builds boats today (flatwater), and we were talking about the differences in the flatwater to whitewater crowd. As "cheap" as flatwater paddlers are, quite frankly we're worse as whitewater paddlers! I admit I'm part of the problem - I've purchased 4 boats new over the years (slightly more than 10% of the boats I've owned).

Now I realize a boat like the Maven or Mentor (or Oxygen) have a VERY limited number of folks who would be interested in them.

But what about boats like the Sith, Wheelboy (admittedly they did sell a bunch...but how many compared to all of us C1 playboat paddlers?), or even race boats, or race-derived boats like the Millbrook Ameoba?

What holds us back from purchasing new, custom boats (as I recall one or two new Viper C1s have been built the last 5 years!), or even plastic ones (Finkenmeister? Wheelboy totals?).

I realize part of the problem is when making a big purchase (which this is for most of us) it is nice to try before you purchase...I'd like to think this board the the Armada's have helped that a bit...but how many folks have actually gone out and purchased a boat new (vs. finding one used)?

Any thoughts and commentary are welcome, one way or the other....this post came about from my pondering while sanding about my conversation with said boat builder (we also discussed a new paddleshop that was rumored to open...and tried to figure out how on earth they thought they could make it...).

I have bought most of the boats I have ever owned new.
For me it depends mainly on one thing: availability. If I really want a boat, and I can't find it used , I will buy it newq for sure. I did so with the Finkenmeister (without ever having seen it befor buying (apart from pictures on the web), the Wheelboy (and I would do so with the Fatboy, if it ever became available), the Sith as well as the Pagan. Cost is obviously a factor as well to some extent, which is why I bought some boats, like the Prelude (whicch was new 2200 the, before taxes) used.
I also try to buy new, especially from companies that really support the C1 market, since if nobody buys new C1's, noone will keep working on further developent of new boats in that field.

I think also what holds a lot of people back from buying composite boats is the perceived fragileness. A lot of people still think that they will break upon the slightest impact. Martin duToit for instance told me that he has been asked several times: 'Will the Saint/Pagan break when I blunt?' ...
The Amoeba is definitely an interesting looking boat, I would definitely like to try one some time. Does anyone know how many of them are out there?

of the 13 boats i've bought;
4 new open canoes- h2 pro, viper12(x2), viper 11
2 new c1's (purchased without a test drive, or even a look-see)-atom, wheelboy
3 new kayaks for conversions (2 of those were warantee deals)-h3 (x2) burn
1 used converted kayak - h3
2 used kayaks for conversions- wavesport x, blisstick-flipstick
1 used slalom boat- don't know what it is
that's 9 new and 4....used i feel good about that

I've bought most of my boats new as well. my c-boat totals are:

1 Gyramax (new)
2 Cascades (1 new, 1 used)
2 Atoms (both new)
1 Fanatic (second-hand but new - Upstream Edge sent the seller the wrong layup and he sold it to me without ever paddling it)
1 Id for conversion (new)
1 Finkenmeister (new)
1 Wheelboy (new)

Total - 7 new, 2 second-hand. I bought every one of these boats without taking them for a test-run (except for the second atom and second cascade, of course). i bought the Fink and the Wheelboy largely to support companies making dedicated plastic c-1 designs. I would have bought even more over the years if there were more plastic designs. i haven't bought more composites primarily because they tend to cost more (or at least i perceive it that way), and i have no idea how to do good glass repair work.

Following is the tally for the boats in my stable:

OPEN CANOES
17' Grumman (lake keel) - new (by my parents 40-50 years ago)
14.5' Mad River St. Croix - used
15' Appleline X-Cider - used OC-2 slalom boat
16' Old Town wood & canvas - used (hope to recondition it one of these years)

C-1s (all slalom designs)
Cudamax - used
Batmax - built myself (recently cutdown)
Zealot - used (recently cutdown)
Galasport Jungle Midi - used (recently cutdown)

C-2s (all slalom designs)
Torrent - built myself (cutdown decades ago, but now legal)
Torrent XL - built myself (recently cutdown)

K-1s (all slalom designs)
Impulse - used (designed by Brian Brown, recently cutdown)
Caiman (forgot the model) - used (recently cut down)
Some unknown pre-1986 clunker made by Waveski - used (recently cut down)

As you can see, I'm pretty cheap. I either build them myself, or, more recently buy them used. I can't afford a new $2,000+ slalom boat from the Czech Republic.

Yikes, I new I was cheap, er "frugal", but after looking back over my cumulative inventory - those gone and those still around - I'm worse than I thought. I have only ever bought 2 boats new of 30 or more ever bought... Now wonder there aren't more C-boat manufacturers...

I've bought 7 boats, and 6 were new . Like Martin, I think many of us would buy new for innovation. I bought a Taureau as soon as I could because its a great creek boat and Jacque is the only one innovating in OC1, there is a need for someone like Esquif on the C1 side now.

I've bought about an equal amount new and used canoes over the last 6 years for my wife and I ... some 14 boats, of which I have 12 now. So I certainly haven't been the problem! I think having a new design out there creates interest in buying a new canoe, but it's usually nearly impossible to see and try the new boats because no one stocks them. To try an Evergreen Solito, I had to buy one. Fortunately, our local paddle store carries Bell and Esquif, so those boats are sometimes available for test paddles. But often the whitewater canoes are special order only. And it takes a real act of faith to shell out the cost of a canoe and outfitting to try a boat that no one has yet.

Another problem is some canoes are dropped from production too soon. I think that's definitely true with the Dagger Phantom. It wasn't made long enough to catch on and consequently the only way to buy one has to purchase it used. If new ones had been available, I would have purchased at least 2 by now. That's one design that deserves to be brought back into production.

I think many cboaters are very dedicated to supporting the c1 industry and buy boats to encourage production sometimes doing so, solely for the hopes that a boat they will love will be made-

Moreover, demographically, I think that the average customer oc1 c1 is a well educated highly paid individual. Unforunately, the c1 market is pretty small, but I honestly feel it's slightly growing- I see more c1s randomly than I ever have- I almost always see one at the Nanty and have run into a few on highly paddled rivers-

Being able to demo boats would make a huge difference to me. Since every paddler is different in size, weight, skill and interests, other folks opinions about any given boat don't really tell me how well I'll like it. I'll risk $300 -$400 to find out if I like a boat but it's hard to part with $1k or more without being a little more certain.
That's why most of my fleet was bought second hand.

When Dave Nickerson was the Esquif rep here in the Northeast he was very generous with demos. I know of a few boats sold because of that. I hope to add a Taureau (with a combing and a skirt!) to the list Yes We should support companies who are developing boats but being able to spend a day in the boat is what convinced me.

Tommy

Atleast I think that's kinda right....although one of those new was a gift and is still a work in progress (soon...Adam....soon...then there shall be a garage and a workshop )

So, ignoring all the kayaks I had previously (also about half and half)
Detonator - my first OC1 - used demo from Jacques
1 used kayak for conversion (Bliss Stick Blitz Special), 1 already converted (XXX)
used Acrobat, used Groove
new Zoom
used demo Wheelboy
new OC2 - but it was an old model and super cheap
"new" kayak for conversion (in progress) - it was a demo but unused

For the last, I would have bought a Taureau if I was in the US/Canada, but here it's 3500chf for a Taureau vs the 1000chf it cost me for the kayak creeker to convert. I just couldn't bite that price, even though I'd love the boat.

Nearly all the boats I've bought new or near new were well below retail, I should state. I'm a pretty cheap bugger at times, but on the other hand, I'm always happy for people to demo and I always try to get people in the boats if I think a companies doing a good job.

Matt