Well, I haven't yet found anything on this site about sizing paddles. Mitchell gives a very loose method (anyone over 6' is between a 60" and 63"). Another site spoke of adding together various measurements including the height of your "seat" (I'm picturing cane woven in a wooden frame here). This is for a b-day gift for my hubby. He's 6'-3" and a beginner. He'll be paddling class III (and eventually maybe IV) and doing many multi-day trips. I've got to sneak a measurement off him that won't involve asking him to kneel in his boat! (Hey, I did it once before to order a custom kilt - I should be able to do it for a freeking paddle!)
Suggestions?
And what are general feelings of the Werner Bandit?
Thanks,
Weemac
Favorite ways to size an OC-1 paddle
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This could cause a few raised hackles! It is a most arcane of boating pursuits and there is a little voodoo involved.
In my opinion, the most important dimension for a proper fit is shaft length, not overall paddle length. I’ll try to support my rational with the following.
Length of blade portion varies from manufacturer to another and the amount of freeboard differs from boat to boat. Grip hand should stay above gunwale. For a paddle to work properly the entire blade area needs to be submerged but should not be too deep. I like to have the last bit of area where blade joins shaft barely below the surface.
Therefore, the shaft should be just long enough to grip in the proper location while keeping the hand above gunwale and submerging blade area completely under the surface. Too bad I don’t have pictures, it really is much simpler than this!
To develop a good shaft length starting point, measure from armpit to tip of forefinger. Then add distance from top of gunwale to waterline. Boat and boater should be in the water for this measurement. Manufacturers post specs for blade length, subtract this distance from overall paddle length to determine shaft length.
To test fit a paddle, grip the paddle around the armpit to forefinger distance, then rest hand on gunwale. If blade is just barely submerged you have a bingo.
This is the starting point. If the paddle feels too long, (and it almost never does) use a shorter one, if too short, longer!
I’m 5’10” and use a 61” paddle in my particular open boat. It’s two inches longer than this formula but gives me plenty of leverage and keeps me from beating my hand on the gunwale with every stroke. On the down side, all that leverage tends to stress my elbow tendons. A 58” paddle works nicely in a C1 for me.
If there is any interest, I’ll get down to the river and make a series of photos.
This is all just my approach and not carved in stone. I’m interested in formulas other folks use…
I have a Bandit but use it as a sacrificial paddle on shallow stuff.
In my opinion, the most important dimension for a proper fit is shaft length, not overall paddle length. I’ll try to support my rational with the following.
Length of blade portion varies from manufacturer to another and the amount of freeboard differs from boat to boat. Grip hand should stay above gunwale. For a paddle to work properly the entire blade area needs to be submerged but should not be too deep. I like to have the last bit of area where blade joins shaft barely below the surface.
Therefore, the shaft should be just long enough to grip in the proper location while keeping the hand above gunwale and submerging blade area completely under the surface. Too bad I don’t have pictures, it really is much simpler than this!
To develop a good shaft length starting point, measure from armpit to tip of forefinger. Then add distance from top of gunwale to waterline. Boat and boater should be in the water for this measurement. Manufacturers post specs for blade length, subtract this distance from overall paddle length to determine shaft length.
To test fit a paddle, grip the paddle around the armpit to forefinger distance, then rest hand on gunwale. If blade is just barely submerged you have a bingo.
This is the starting point. If the paddle feels too long, (and it almost never does) use a shorter one, if too short, longer!
I’m 5’10” and use a 61” paddle in my particular open boat. It’s two inches longer than this formula but gives me plenty of leverage and keeps me from beating my hand on the gunwale with every stroke. On the down side, all that leverage tends to stress my elbow tendons. A 58” paddle works nicely in a C1 for me.
If there is any interest, I’ll get down to the river and make a series of photos.
This is all just my approach and not carved in stone. I’m interested in formulas other folks use…
I have a Bandit but use it as a sacrificial paddle on shallow stuff.
have fun or go home!
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Larry Horne
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yarnellboat
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I agree that a 60" would probably be a comfortable guess.
All the fancy vodoo formulas aside, I keep it simple -
average-short people try a 56"
average-tall people a 58" (I'll bet a really huge percentage of guy tripping/ww canoeists use a 56" or 58")
tall people 60"
Probably shorten those a bit if it's for solo playboating in a ww open canoe, and shorten them a bit more if it's for a C-1.
The only way to get an ideal shaft length is for the paddler himself to decide what it is, and that may change season to season as they try new paddles, new paddling objectives or just experiment with length.
To keep it simple, the above should put you in a the ballpark for a paddle that won't feel wrong.
PY.
All the fancy vodoo formulas aside, I keep it simple -
average-short people try a 56"
average-tall people a 58" (I'll bet a really huge percentage of guy tripping/ww canoeists use a 56" or 58")
tall people 60"
Probably shorten those a bit if it's for solo playboating in a ww open canoe, and shorten them a bit more if it's for a C-1.
The only way to get an ideal shaft length is for the paddler himself to decide what it is, and that may change season to season as they try new paddles, new paddling objectives or just experiment with length.
To keep it simple, the above should put you in a the ballpark for a paddle that won't feel wrong.
PY.
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sbroam
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Take 4 paddles - 54", 56", 58", and 60" - spend a couple of hours with each starting with the longest. You may know almost immediately when one will not work, likely the ones that are way too long. If your "top" shoulder hurts, you bang the boat on cross strokes, or you are constantly hitting rocks, pick the next smallest one. Stop when you find one that works, keep the next smallest one for a spare (OC-1), keep the next longest one for paddling stern in a tandem or guiding a raft. Discard the remaining one.
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billcanoes
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paddle length
There should be some threads out the already on paddle length I use 53.5 -56" c1 and 56-57" oc1- I used to have a 58" but it does cause some joint pain-
I'm 5'5" -
I don't care for the bandit- mine is 4 years old and used 3 times- you can see the glass turn white from rock impacts- I've hear the all carbon is much better. BTW I do like my Nantahala for creeking- it bends and has allowed me to duck underneath it- where a graphite shaft might not have been as forgiving- it's a 56" and I use it in a C1- I like the extra leverage (though not a whole lot extra) /length to reach over rocks to start a turn before I've passed the object
one last thing to consider is a shorter paddle if you're paddling in shallow water often
Bill
I'm 5'5" -
I don't care for the bandit- mine is 4 years old and used 3 times- you can see the glass turn white from rock impacts- I've hear the all carbon is much better. BTW I do like my Nantahala for creeking- it bends and has allowed me to duck underneath it- where a graphite shaft might not have been as forgiving- it's a 56" and I use it in a C1- I like the extra leverage (though not a whole lot extra) /length to reach over rocks to start a turn before I've passed the object
one last thing to consider is a shorter paddle if you're paddling in shallow water often
Bill
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sdbrassfield
- Supporting Paddler
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I am 5'8" tall and use a 56.5" for C-1 and a 58" for OC-1. Personally, I think the best formula is to have the T-grip fit snugly in your armpit when the blade tip is firmly on the ground. That way it can double as a crutch at the take out. You can't go wrong with a Mitchel. I've had five and currently keep two. My next stick will be a Clinch River, however. The Werner Bandit is a piece of junk. Mine started delaminating or breaking apart at the edges after three uses.
how about ordering one without the t-grip attached, hubby can then
make the paddle whatever length he wants....this is kinda like getting
a putter, for a golfer
yes, the bandit is a good paddle...the carbon shaft is only a couple ounces less weight and a good bit more fragile. I've used all brands
of paddles, and the Werner is AT LEAST as durable as any
it's not a 'New World' or a 'Gala' or a 'Robson' or a 'Mitchell', or a
'what-cha-ma-callit'.... around here everybody has there own favorite
what a woman!!!
a paddle for b-day, you don't happen to have a twin....
make the paddle whatever length he wants....this is kinda like getting
a putter, for a golfer
yes, the bandit is a good paddle...the carbon shaft is only a couple ounces less weight and a good bit more fragile. I've used all brands
of paddles, and the Werner is AT LEAST as durable as any
it's not a 'New World' or a 'Gala' or a 'Robson' or a 'Mitchell', or a
'what-cha-ma-callit'.... around here everybody has there own favorite
what a woman!!!
a paddle for b-day, you don't happen to have a twin....
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sbroam
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sbroam wrote:Take 4 paddles ...
I didn't read the initial post, just the subject line I stand by my suggestion if you have a stack of sticks available to borrow, try, demo, etc. But in your scenario, I'm with Phil. Order one uncut with the grip loose. I've shortened paddles that already had a grip attached, but that can be a pain. And I've never figured out a good way to make a paddle longer...
Last edited by sbroam on Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oci-One Kanubi
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Here is the heuristic Bob Foote teaches for OC-1.
(or used to teach, at any rate; I haven't seen him for a few years). I know this will not help for a surprise gift, but...
Get in the boat in at least two feet of water. Seated or kneeling in your usual paddling position, grab the t-grip and shaft and hold the shaft horizontally over yer head (like a barbell) with yer upper arms exactly horizontal and yer forearms exactly vertical, so that the paddle shaft completes a perfect rectangle. This is the optimum position for yer shaft hand, based upon yer shoulder width and upper-arm length. You could put a bit of tape around the shaft, right up against yer thumb, if you want to mark it.
Now, without changing yer grip, rest the edge of yer shaft hand on the gunwhale, pivoting it out just enough to hold the shaft exactly vertical while it makes contact with the hull somewhere between yer hand and the blade. In this position, the shoulder of the blade should just begin to flare where the hull begins to curve under, so that the inward half of the blade actually goes under the boat. If the shoulder of the blade doesn't fit the curve of the hull, slide the shaft up and down in yer shaft hand (still resting upon the gunwhale) and use another bit of tape to mark it when you find the right position. Now, the difference between the two bits of tape will show you how much longer or shorter a paddle you must get (assuming, I s'pose, that you get another paddle of the same manufacture and model). I would also assume that, if your measurements fall between two of the available lengths (59", say) you should go with the longer (60") rather than the shorter (58").
The idea is that, when you stroke forward, you want a vertical shaft, as close to the center of the boat as possible, with the blade fully immersed.
Get in the boat in at least two feet of water. Seated or kneeling in your usual paddling position, grab the t-grip and shaft and hold the shaft horizontally over yer head (like a barbell) with yer upper arms exactly horizontal and yer forearms exactly vertical, so that the paddle shaft completes a perfect rectangle. This is the optimum position for yer shaft hand, based upon yer shoulder width and upper-arm length. You could put a bit of tape around the shaft, right up against yer thumb, if you want to mark it.
Now, without changing yer grip, rest the edge of yer shaft hand on the gunwhale, pivoting it out just enough to hold the shaft exactly vertical while it makes contact with the hull somewhere between yer hand and the blade. In this position, the shoulder of the blade should just begin to flare where the hull begins to curve under, so that the inward half of the blade actually goes under the boat. If the shoulder of the blade doesn't fit the curve of the hull, slide the shaft up and down in yer shaft hand (still resting upon the gunwhale) and use another bit of tape to mark it when you find the right position. Now, the difference between the two bits of tape will show you how much longer or shorter a paddle you must get (assuming, I s'pose, that you get another paddle of the same manufacture and model). I would also assume that, if your measurements fall between two of the available lengths (59", say) you should go with the longer (60") rather than the shorter (58").
The idea is that, when you stroke forward, you want a vertical shaft, as close to the center of the boat as possible, with the blade fully immersed.
-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
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Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
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John Coraor
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I think that the range of different answers you're getting should be your first warning.
Determination of paddle length involves a lot of factors, some of which you can measure objectively, but some of which are quite idiosyncratic. Note that the first response posted gave a very precise formula for determining paddle length, but then commented that his open canoe paddle is actually 2" longer than this formula calls for and his C-1 (decked boat) paddle is 3" shorter than his open boat paddle (a fairly common difference when switching between open and decked boats). The bottom line is that formulas will only get you so far, and even there, the most reliable ones will require that you sit your husband in his boat holding a paddle (or at least a broomstick) to take the measurements. When you add to this the variance that represents individual paddler preference, I would suggest that buying a fixed length paddle in advance, without your husband's cooperation is a lost cause.
If you can find a manufacturer who is willing to sell you a canoe paddle with the grip unattached, then this is one possible solution to the problem. Get a shaft that is as long or longer than you think your husband might like and have him determine where to cut it off and attach the grip. However, finding such a manufacturer is harder than you think. Werner will NOT sell a paddle with an unattached grip. I tried to buy one that way a couple of years ago and spoke with their production manager. They believe that selling an "uncompleted" product would open them up to product liability lawsuits if and when someone's self-attached grip fails in a nasty situation. Two decades ago I routinely purchased Mitchell paddles without the grip attached. We used to add a dynel sleeve to the throat and bottom portion of the shaft to increase its durability. However, they have changed their design and construction techniques considerably since then. I don't know whether they would still sell a paddle with an unattached grip, but you don't know if you don't ask.
If you ask 12 canoeists which paddle to buy, you're likely to get 12 different answers. I think the range of answers you've already received tends to demonstrate this. Even among the same brand there are often different models, choices of construction (e.g. wood, wood/carbon, all carbon, carbon/kevlar, etc.), and sometimes even straight shaft vs. various ergonomic shaft options. However, the most frequent answers tend to include the Mitchell Premier, Galasport 3M, and Zaveral Power Curve. There are others that are mentioned, including some beautiful hand-crafted wooden "sticks" that you'll need to order 6-12 months in advance (I'm still paddling with one of those that's more than 2 decades old). However, now that I've actually mentioned some paddles there will be 20 posts taking exception to those choices, and, of course, they'll all be right. That's because paddle choice is very idosyncratic and what one paddler will swear by, another will swear at.
If you can't find a manufacturer willing to sell a paddle with the grip unattached, then maybe you need to give your husband an IOU for a paddle of his choice. Let him plunge into the task of figuring out what he wants, rather than have him grumble that you got him a 59" all carbon, straight shaft, Galasport 3M when what he really wanted was a 60" carbon/kevlar, double torque-shaft, Galasport 3M.
...And to ramble on just a little further! When it does come time to decide on paddle length, your husband needs to get in his boat and ideally try out some different paddles. If he trys out paddles while in his boat, then he's automatically taking into account the variances that one finds for differences in seat height, type of boat, etc. With his blade buried in the water to the throat at the "catch" (beginning of the paddle stroke), you generally want your grip hand around eye level. However, depending upon individual preference, some paddlers have their grip hand as high as the top of their head and some like it as low as level with the shoulder. That's a pretty wide variance, but for what its worth they'll generally fall in this range. If he can't demo a selection of actual paddles, then the advice about the shaft length being the critical factor (rather than overall length) is widely accepted as being true. Determine the desired shaft length while sitting in the boat as described above, then add to it the length of the blade for the chosen make and model and you wind up with the desired paddle length. If you switch models or manufacturers, then generally the shaft length will stay constant, but the overall length might vary sometwhat depending upon any differences in blade length.
Determination of paddle length involves a lot of factors, some of which you can measure objectively, but some of which are quite idiosyncratic. Note that the first response posted gave a very precise formula for determining paddle length, but then commented that his open canoe paddle is actually 2" longer than this formula calls for and his C-1 (decked boat) paddle is 3" shorter than his open boat paddle (a fairly common difference when switching between open and decked boats). The bottom line is that formulas will only get you so far, and even there, the most reliable ones will require that you sit your husband in his boat holding a paddle (or at least a broomstick) to take the measurements. When you add to this the variance that represents individual paddler preference, I would suggest that buying a fixed length paddle in advance, without your husband's cooperation is a lost cause.
If you can find a manufacturer who is willing to sell you a canoe paddle with the grip unattached, then this is one possible solution to the problem. Get a shaft that is as long or longer than you think your husband might like and have him determine where to cut it off and attach the grip. However, finding such a manufacturer is harder than you think. Werner will NOT sell a paddle with an unattached grip. I tried to buy one that way a couple of years ago and spoke with their production manager. They believe that selling an "uncompleted" product would open them up to product liability lawsuits if and when someone's self-attached grip fails in a nasty situation. Two decades ago I routinely purchased Mitchell paddles without the grip attached. We used to add a dynel sleeve to the throat and bottom portion of the shaft to increase its durability. However, they have changed their design and construction techniques considerably since then. I don't know whether they would still sell a paddle with an unattached grip, but you don't know if you don't ask.
If you ask 12 canoeists which paddle to buy, you're likely to get 12 different answers. I think the range of answers you've already received tends to demonstrate this. Even among the same brand there are often different models, choices of construction (e.g. wood, wood/carbon, all carbon, carbon/kevlar, etc.), and sometimes even straight shaft vs. various ergonomic shaft options. However, the most frequent answers tend to include the Mitchell Premier, Galasport 3M, and Zaveral Power Curve. There are others that are mentioned, including some beautiful hand-crafted wooden "sticks" that you'll need to order 6-12 months in advance (I'm still paddling with one of those that's more than 2 decades old). However, now that I've actually mentioned some paddles there will be 20 posts taking exception to those choices, and, of course, they'll all be right. That's because paddle choice is very idosyncratic and what one paddler will swear by, another will swear at.
If you can't find a manufacturer willing to sell a paddle with the grip unattached, then maybe you need to give your husband an IOU for a paddle of his choice. Let him plunge into the task of figuring out what he wants, rather than have him grumble that you got him a 59" all carbon, straight shaft, Galasport 3M when what he really wanted was a 60" carbon/kevlar, double torque-shaft, Galasport 3M.
...And to ramble on just a little further! When it does come time to decide on paddle length, your husband needs to get in his boat and ideally try out some different paddles. If he trys out paddles while in his boat, then he's automatically taking into account the variances that one finds for differences in seat height, type of boat, etc. With his blade buried in the water to the throat at the "catch" (beginning of the paddle stroke), you generally want your grip hand around eye level. However, depending upon individual preference, some paddlers have their grip hand as high as the top of their head and some like it as low as level with the shoulder. That's a pretty wide variance, but for what its worth they'll generally fall in this range. If he can't demo a selection of actual paddles, then the advice about the shaft length being the critical factor (rather than overall length) is widely accepted as being true. Determine the desired shaft length while sitting in the boat as described above, then add to it the length of the blade for the chosen make and model and you wind up with the desired paddle length. If you switch models or manufacturers, then generally the shaft length will stay constant, but the overall length might vary sometwhat depending upon any differences in blade length.
Last edited by John Coraor on Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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the great gonzo
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I'll add my formula to confuse the issue even more 
...
When kneeling in my boat, with my paddle in the water, the blade fully immersed and the shaft completely vertical I want the T-grip hand no higher than about eye-level. Anything more than that will wear out my shoulder throughout a day of paddling.
Following this , I use a 58" paddle in my Prelude, a 56" paddle in the Finkenmeister and a 54" in my other C1's. Al paddles are H20-Team, which have a relatively short and wide blade.
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
...When kneeling in my boat, with my paddle in the water, the blade fully immersed and the shaft completely vertical I want the T-grip hand no higher than about eye-level. Anything more than that will wear out my shoulder throughout a day of paddling.
Following this , I use a 58" paddle in my Prelude, a 56" paddle in the Finkenmeister and a 54" in my other C1's. Al paddles are H20-Team, which have a relatively short and wide blade.
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
Ok, now that all the scientists have told you how to precisely measure the paddle length, you can see that it varies, mostly amounts to paddler comfort.
What is your hubby paddling with now? I'm 6'4, and 62" works well for me in OC... I also have a 58" and that isnt that bad in OC either... So I'd say you'd prolly be safe w/ 60"-62"..
58" works great for me in C1.
If you get a longer paddle, you could always have it cut down after, if he finds it too long. The other direction (lengthening paddles) is doable, but more difficult/costly.
Mike.
What is your hubby paddling with now? I'm 6'4, and 62" works well for me in OC... I also have a 58" and that isnt that bad in OC either... So I'd say you'd prolly be safe w/ 60"-62"..
58" works great for me in C1.
If you get a longer paddle, you could always have it cut down after, if he finds it too long. The other direction (lengthening paddles) is doable, but more difficult/costly.
Mike.
-- Cya